In my previous post, I concluded that the steppe ancestry in Indians is most likely to have arrived after 1000 BCE via the East Iranian-speaking ΕΔka. the ~850 CE TKM_IA sample turned out to be the best steppe source among the options provided.
Since then, a particular commentator on Twitter, who is adamant about the ~1500 BCE invisible steppe invasion into India has been putting alternative viewpoints in support of the old theory favoured by Kurganists.
In his first attempt, he argued for an Inner Asian Mountain Corridor (IAMC) specific ancestry (Aigyrzhal_BA from Kyrgystan 2000 BCE as the proxy).
@Astra_2310 @DevarajaIndra @razibkhan @agenetics1
— Ummon Karpe | π π«π¦ πππ§π π (@The_Equationist) December 13, 2022
Tl;dr I'm arguing we need bronze age Aigyrzhal, not just Sintashta, to model the steppe ancestry in Indians. Thoughts? https://t.co/7SRF1KwXWs
He did not provide qpAdm output support to this claim. Since my previous article did not have Aigyrzhal_BA as a possible source (I did use Sarazm_En as a source which is a related population), I added it to the list of possible sources and retested a few of the targets. I believe that sunlight is the best disinfectant and hence all counters should be addressed satisfactorily to take the discussion further (unless they are outrageous).
None of the targets chosen showed any success with Aigyrzhal_BA, and TKM_IA was chosen as the best source in all cases. So this argument of his was easily dismissed. You can read my replies to his tweet with my results, and the file with the rotating model outputs for this particular exercise is accessible here.
In the next salvo, @The_Equationist proposed that the Loebanr_IA outlier woman from Swat valley has an ancestry which is better suited than Turkmenistan_IA to be the source of steppe in modern Indians. The attached file in his tweet has qpAdm results of a few modern Indians (Pandit, Tamil_Brahmin, Telugu_Brahmin, Haryana_Jat, Marathi_Vani) which compares the results for both options and proves his case.
20) So what do the stats say? We can run the two models against each other to see which is a better source of steppe ancestry. It turns out that the woman in Loebanr is a better fit than Iron Age Turkmenistan for most modern Indian populations. https://t.co/jslL73JfrS
— Ummon Karpe | π π«π¦ πππ§π π (@The_Equationist) December 15, 2022
Let me first share a few minor problems that I see with that analysis so that it is sturdier in the future:
1. He has not made clear the version of the qpAdm tool used. Admixtools 2 for R is the latest version, but it is not tested enough and it does not give equal results as the standard, tested Admixtools 1 version on Linux/Mac. Furthermore, the results change drastically depending on the specific steps used (F2 extract first vs feeding the Geno data directly, size of the Geno file, etc). These are critical bugs, so I have stopped using Admixtools 2, and rely on the tested and stable Admixtools 1 version.
2. The number of SNPs of the private samples should be made clear (lower SNPs allow subpar models to pass as well).
3. Parameters used should be made clear (parameters setting - maxmiss? allsnps? inbreed?).
4. Sample ids and labels of all samples used should be made available.
All these are important so that one can try to replicate the results. This allows for a healthier debate. But all considered, this is nothing major because I can test these myself with my own settings.
A. SWAT Iron Age samples explained
Most of the Swat iron age (roughly dated from 1100-800 BCE) samples are extremely homogenous and form two clusters.
1. Swat_low steppe: A cluster of 10 odd samples which are not pulled towards BMAC/Sintashta as much as the Swat_IA cluster. These represent the local population ancestry before the steppe/BMAC impact on the region. Importantly, they are distinct from the Indus Periphery Samples from Shahr-Sokhta and Gonur but closer to Indus Periphery than the Swat_IA cluster is.
2. Swat_IA: The rest of the samples cluster tightly and show a higher steppe ancestry than the low steppe cluster.
I have analyzed the Swat samples in detail in this post. The likely steppe source for Swat_IA is something with the ancestry of Dali_MLBA, a population descended from ~80% Sintashta and ~20% IAMC ancestry (like Dali_EBA).
It becomes clear that the ancestry profile of the Loebanr_o sample is not at all representative of the region. Rather, from the PCA it seems that Loebanr_o is an admixture between Swat_IA and TKM_IA in a roughly 50/50 manner (it falls in the middle of the Swat_IA - TKM_IA cline). I will prove this with formal stats later.
In the above PCA, you can also see that TKM_IA falls smack on the cline joining BMAC and Sintashta, whereas Loebanr_o is pulled towards Swat_IA and lies very close to the cline joining TKM_IA and Swat_IA.
From the below PCA, it also seems that the source of the steppe for Swat_IA is one which is heavier in BMAC than TKM_IA. We find this by joining the Swat_lowsteppe and Swat_IA cluster and extending it to meet the BMAC-Sintashta cline (at the pink circle). This probably tells us that the steppe/BMAC mixed source for Swat_IA was older than the date of TKM_IA since steppe contact to the south increased over time.
Above are the basic inferences that can be made by looking at the general ancestries of all these samples.
Problem with using an Outlier as a source
The major issue is the usage of an outlier sample as a source. To put it in perspective, there are 101 samples from the Swat Valley Iron age in the aDNA database. Only one sample (two if you count another outlier with low quality) of these, Loebanr_outlier, shows this elevated steppe ancestry profile.
In my previous article, I did not include Loebanr_outlier as a source. I had also given the following caveat:
"5. A rotating model strategy checks each source for fit in an unbiased manner. However, the list of sources chosen introduces bias. Since there is a limit to the number of sources I can test (due to very high program runtimes) there could possibly be some Labels not present in this analysis which could be the true source. I have tried to ensure that the most relevant theorized sources are included here."
I did include Loebanr_IA (as a proxy for Swat_IA) and Aligrama_IA (as a proxy for Swat_lowsteppe) as potential sources in the previous article but they don't get selected. However, the exclusion of Loebanr_outlier had nothing to do with this caveat. I didn't include it because it is not good practice to use extreme outliers (~1/100 in Swat iron age) to model a population the size of India, since we do not know whether such a population was present in large enough numbers to cause an impact in the whole of India. If we do assume that such a population was present in large numbers, we do not know where they were present in those large numbers. Some educated guesses can be made, I will make them in some time.
Having said all this, it is still worthwhile to attempt to model modern Indians with this sample, because if it does become successful it can give us valuable information about the kind of vector of steppe source in Indians.
B. Testing the models
In this section, I will post the results of the various rotating qpAdm models that will be required for this article. I will use Admixtools 1 on Linux (qpAdm version 1520, qpfstats version 540). qpfstats parameters are set to allsnps: YES, inbreed: NO, scale: NO. qpfstats output will be used as input for qpadm models.
As usual, rotating models will be run with Fixed references and Rotating sources/references. When the sources are not being tested, they will be put in the reference list along with the fixed references. So all combinations of models for a target will have the same number of references.
Models with p-value > 0.05 AND positive admixture weights will be accepted. Passing models will be marked green, and failed models in red. If no models pass, the one with the highest p-value will be shaded yellow.
List of sources to be tested |
Fixed Reference list |
All the caveats of my previous post, apply to these qpAdm models as well.
B.1 Modelling of Targets
Targets to be tested |
Most of the targets are the same as my previous post, but in this analysis, I added the RoopkundA samples from ~800 CE Roopkund lake, Uttarakhand. 4 samples with the highest steppe ancestry and with >200k SNPs were tested individually, and the rest of the 17 were clubbed together. In an earlier article, I analyzed the RoopkundA samples with distal qpAdm models. In this analysis, I will model them with proximal sources.
B.1.1 Roopkund_I2871
Indus_Periphery + Kangju provides the best model for I2871.
B.1.2 Roopkund I3346
Loebanr_o is the best steppe source for this sample.
B.1.3 Roopkund I3406
Loebanr_IA_o is the best steppe source
B.1.4 Roopkund I6938
Loebanr_o is the best steppe source for this sample.
B.1.5 Roopkund A
This label contains 17 other samples from RoopkundA cluster except for the 4 high steppe samples that I already analyzed and the 2 Pallan-like samples.
No models pass, but Loebanr_o is the most promising steppe source.
B.1.6 Niyogi Telugu Brahmin
Gonur (BMAC), Loebanr_o as well as TKM_IA are acceptable external sources with similar p-values for their models.
B.1.7 Tyagi_UP
B.1.8 Telugu Brahmin
B.1.9 Rajput East UP
B.1.10 Rajput from UP/MP border
B.1.11 Tamil Brahmins
B.1.12 Saryuparin Dwivedi from UP
B.1.13 Kashmiri Pandit
B.2 Results of the Models
C. Model for Loebanr_IA_o
Result: Turkmenistan_IA + Loebanr_IA / Indus Periphery (SiS_BA2) / or Aligrama_IA is accepted. Sintashta + Loebanr_IA or SiS_BA2 is accepted.
Apart from having the highest p-value and working with an additional local source (pre-steppe ancestry of Aligrama_IA, Swat), Turkmenistan_IA is also to be preferred due to archaeological contacts with Swat.
From Sarianidi (2001), emphasis is mine
The copper "double-teeth forks" from Yaz Tepe in Margiana (fig. 15) and Hissar III in the Iranian Khorasan (Schmidt 1937, pl. iv) offer further proof of this statement, and they closely resemble the analogous ones from Swat (EIEC, p. 559).
Also,
According to some scholars (Mallory 1989; Sarianidi 1998a), there is no archaeological data testifying to the presence of the steppe Andronovo tribes on the Indian subcontinent. On the other hand, there is a lot of material proving the penetration of the BMAC type tribes into this area (Sarianidi 1998a: 153-158, fig.75).
And,
The Swat Valley is unanimously considered to be the only suitable way through which the Indo-Aryans could have reached the Indus Valley. In such a case Swat may be looked upon as an intermediate point on the joumey that Indo-Aryan tribes took when migrating from the BMAC to the sites of the Harappan civilization.It has already been mentioned that Swat materials find their closest analogies in Central Asia and North Iran... (Mallory 1989)
In my previous article, I have also provided additional archaeological evidence connecting the Yaz cultures to sites (900-600 BCE) in modern Pakistan like the Bannu basin (Petrie and Magee, 2005). Parpola (2012) identifies the Yaz-1-related people are proto-Saka Dasyus of the Rig Veda.
As I mentioned before, the Loebanr_outlier sample has excess steppe ancestry unseen in any other sample from the region. The closest samples in time and space which could have been the source of the steppe ancestry would be TKM_IA (~850 BCE) or Kashkarchi_BA (~1100 BCE Uzbekistan, ancestry is very similar to Sintashta, almost pure steppe_MLBA profile). We are missing samples from North Afghanistan (BMAC culture at Dashly 3 in North Afghanistan) which would have provided important clues about the path taken to Swat valley.
Nevertheless, the date of the Loebanr_outlier sample is 1107-924 cal BCE. Her mtDNA Hg is T1a1 which is definitely from the steppe, indicating that she had a steppe-ancestry-rich mother but likely a local father. Narasimhan et al 2019 in their archaeological supplement put the material in her grave as belonging to the 'middle/late phase'.
The assemblage includes 20 vessels and miniature vessels, beads of semi-precious stones, an iron pin and a spindle whorl. The chronology of the pottery is associated to the middle/late phase of the Swat Protohistoric Graves assemblages.
D. Responding to @The_Equationist's Arguments made in his thread
"Most of India would have been filled with ASI people during the Iron Age - aside from some groups such as Tamil Scheduled Caste with elevated IVC ancestry, even in North India in the regions where the IVC ruled, the IVC ancestry had become heavily diluted by hunter-gatherers."
4. There is a close to a 100% chance that the 5 local sources do not cover the variance within the pre-steppe population of India. So, regardless of what the passing models say, with new data and more choices, the working models will keep changing. Models should not be taken too literally eg. Irula being chosen as a successful source does not literally mean that the Irula ancestors admixed with the other sources in the North.
He can also be modelled without steppe (Irula + Bmac, which may also be a proxy for a northern shifted local pre-steppe population without actual BMAC ancestry).
The combination of Irula + a 2nd (lower AASI) local source tells us that the steppe source admixed with a population which was more northern in ancestry than Irula.
8) In this respect however, when it comes to this Saka migration theory, the sociopolitical implications would be quite dire.
As if the implication of the male-mediated steppe migration/invasion theory has some extremely rosy and pleasant consequence. Though the consequence is not my concern, only the truth is.
9) Saka migrants and invaders would have inserted themselves as rulers right in the middle of the blossoming of classical Indian society, with their descendants being privileged for thousands of years over the natives who composed the Vedas and founded the Kuru Panchala kingdom.
19) is where he takes a bigger leap than Michael Jordan
For example, one woman buried in 10th/9th century BCE Swat culture in Loebanr genetically resembles an already steppe-admixed ANI-rich person. And we know she’s a transplant from India and not from the steppe because her ancestry has some AASI in it.
She's a transplant from India and not from the steppe because of AASI? Her mtDNA T1a1 is literally from the steppe. Her autosomal profile is Loebanr_IA + TKM_IA. She has nothing to do with any region south of Swat. There is not a single person in modern India with that high a steppe ancestry. She absolutely cannot be a migrant from deeper inside India. There is also not a single ancient sample from anywhere close to India with that high a steppe ancestry. So unless India is a deep fountain of steppe ancestry, he is wrong.
She was the child of a local Swat valley man and a woman who was likely a migrant from the Yaz culture.
20) - I'm in agreement. Loebanr_o fits better than the Iron age Turkmenistan sample as a steppe source. However, Loebanr_o herself is descended partly from TKM_IA (~51%) and they're both from around the same time period of ~900 BCE. Tomato/tamaato.
23) - "The mediating source was already in India at this time".
Already at the periphery of India, to be precise. And yes, this is great proof that by 900 BCE the Saka-like ancestry of the Yaz people was entering India. Later, between 900-600 BCE, Yaz related material culture can be found at Bannu-Akra sites as per Petrie & Magee, 2012. How many people with ancestry like hers migrated south, is the question.
12 comments:
Ummon actually makes more sense than you Vashishta , and that Loebanr_o is not a hybrid with SPGT and Yaz , you really are a moron. Loebanr_o has elevated amounts of Siberian-Naryn like ancestry. Your shitty rotating models make no sense as usual. She is 40% Mitanni , looks like an Early Indo Aryan . GGC predates Yaz by hundreds of years, you have to go to Vakshu or Bishkent to find an antecedent culture (Hint : its not in Goojrat )
left pops:
PAK_Loebanr_IA_o
Alalakh_MLBA_o
Srubnaya_Alakul
SIS2
tail: 0.91
coeffs: 0.388 0.287 0.325
sample: Loebanr IA o:I12138
distance: 2.2147805959999998
Alalakh_MLBA_o: 37.4
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 30.8
CG_IVCp: 23.8
Tarim_EMBA1: 8
qpfstats into qpadm is the same as ADMIXTOOLS 2. qpfstats only writes f2 stats which is what ADMIXTOOLS 2 does.
@shittycaviar
Yea she is a Mitanni 300 yrs after Mitanni empire fell lmao. Go back to bed
Put up my response: https://twitter.com/The_Equationist/status/1603956462883319808
This should put the matter to rest. Tl;dr:
1) DATES shows the population the woman came from got its steppe admixture at least 13 generations earlier. She cannot have been the daughter of a steppe migrant. The covariance in her chromosomes just isn't there.
2) Modern Haryana Jats are overwhelmingly descended from people like this woman. The same is not the case with Kashmiri Pandits. This is consistent with a high steppe population having formed in modern Punjab / Haryana from which this woman originated, in contrast to the lower steppe population observed in Swat.
Trivial claims which can easily be rubbished. I have some work today, so wait for my response.
@blue xavier
'its not from goojrat'
Bro tbh I havent fully read this post but..
Swat Valley samples are not differentiated by Steppe DNA, they are differentiated by recent DNA from northern Gujarat/Ror.
Run the f4s
D(Swat New, Swat Old) Steppe/Gujarati A, Chimp)
And you will see that North Gujarat is a better candidate for the incoming DNA that differentiates the Historic samples.
New post addressing @Ummon's response is now up. Its quite decisive I think, not going to touch this topic for some time now.
If there are two confounding events then will a recent but smaller pulse outweigh the older pulse in DATES. ..what is Moorjani’s contention?
@postneo
"Finally, we explored the impact of more complex demographic events, including continuous admixture and founder events using coalescent simulations (Appendix 2). In the case of continuous admixture, DATES inferred an intermediate timing between the start and the end of the gene flow period, similar to other methods like ALDER and Globetrotter" from Chintalapati et al on DATES
In case of continuous admixture, the output gives an intermediate date, somewhere in between. Multiple bursts should give a similar result,
Just letting you know, TKM_IA doesn't work as the best Steppe source for ancient mainland Indians π.
Repeating, ancient MAINDLAND INDIANS.
Marathas are best coper I have seen till date , you guys are literally aasi riches folks giving nuts to kurganists
Go back to bed you lizard lover
Turkmenistan has a 0 to 4C winter...
Do you see such spikey hair in whitey?
No, you see spikey hair in east asians adapted to -30C amur river siberia!
Only kazakhstan/south urals would make sense.
But who cares, the ancestry just makes u violent and evil
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