Saturday, February 19, 2022

Modern Iranian Speaking groups + An ancient Sassanian in Mongolia?

 A short post on the Iranian-speaking groups and their ancestry components.




It is well known that the steppe groups themselves had only a minor genetic impact on the Iranian-speaking groups in Iran and the middle east.

In the rough ancestry modeling of the Balochis, Iranians, and Kurds available on G25, the Bactriana Margiana Archaeological Complex ancestry, (as proxied by the samples from 2000-1500bce Bustan in Uzbekistan) is a common link averaging to 35%. Whereas Steppe ancestry being another common link only averages 13%.

It is important to note that none of the other sources have hidden steppe ancestry (Shahr_Sokhta_BA2 = IVC/Indus Periphery, Kura-Araxes = 4000-2000bce South Caucasus, Ashkelon_LBA = 1500bce Levant ancestry). Bustan_BA = 2200-1600bce BMAC ancestry. BMAC has 0% steppe ancestry itself.

Viktor Sarianidi, the excavator of the main BMAC sites, had famously associated BMAC culture with Zoroastrians given the abundance of fire worship activities (1). While I feel that is a stretch, the evidence is strong that they were proto/Iranian speakers and had an IE culture.

BMAC


If we replace IVC ancestry with Swat_Iron age ancestry proxied by Katelai_IA, we get the below.



I think we can generally agree that Pakistan_IA sort of ancestry is not the progenitor of the Iranian language family but is more related to the Aryan languages of South Asia. That again leaves the BMAC ancestry as the major common link between the Iranian groups.

Also note the roughly 20-25:80-75 ratio of Steppe:BMAC. I will use it in the next section to make a point.


TUK001: The outlier sample from Xianbei Culture, Mongolia.

This is a very important outlier sample which I guess was missed by most people including me. She is a female and dated to around 300 cal CE. She was a migrant to the Mongolian region. Her ancestry was plublished in the Jeong et al 2020 study.  The paper notes -
Individual TUK001 (250–383 cal. CE), whose burial was an intrusion into an earlier Xiongnu cemetery, has the highest western Eurasian affinity. This ancestry is distinct from that of the Sarmatians and closer to ancient populations with BMAC/Iranian-related ancestry

Elsewhere, the paper notes -

One individual in this study (TUK001) at the site of Tamiryn Ulaan Khoshuu (Burkhan Tolgoi) dates to the era of Xianbei power in Inner Asia; however, there is no cultural context that could affirm affiliation with the Xianbei or other groups of northeastern China. Instead, recent excavations at this site have yielded artifacts, such as pottery from the Kwarezm oasis cultures near the Aral Sea and coins of the Sassanian Persian empire, that indicate significant interactions with areas in Central Asia and much farther west.

The ancestry of TUK001 is something like this

Adding near eastern ancestry reduces the distance (improves fit) further. Confirmation that this woman was indeed a migrant from the modern Iranian region.

TUK001 G25


TUK001 has mtDNA haplogroup H2a2b, and the ancient DNA database with this haplogroup all belong to either England, Sweden, Germany, Estonia, Czechia, or Poland. The oldest H2a2b samples are from Poland_CordedWare and Czech_Unetice. So we can safely assume that the steppe ancestry in TUK001 is mediated via her mother, while the BMAC related ancestry is via her father.So now we have evidence of a roughly 75:25 bmac:Steppe sample, most likely from the Khwarazm (Chorasmia) or Sassanian Iranian-speaking region existing as late as 300 cal CE. This is a very similar ratio required for the Iranian-speaking modern groups noted above. This sample also disproves Narasimhan et al's 2019 claim that post 1500bce, the Central Asian region had a significant amount of East Asian-related ancestry uniformly present across all groups. 


Modeling Iranian Groups with TUK001 instead of BMAC + Sintashta as sources

TUK001 is a good source for these groups.
*Pashtun_Afg does better with additional Steppe source provided to it.


The overall fit worsens a bit, but TUK001 is a decent source for the ancestry in Iranian groups, and I would bet that this 35% Sassanian/Chorasmian ancestry or a similar ancestry is the common causal link between these Iranian groups, whose genetic roots ultimately lie in the 2200-1700bce BMAC culture.

Thoughts?

Edited to Add:

Let's do a comparison between Aryan groups and Iranian groups.

Aryan vs Iranian


Aryan groups differ from Iranian in a few ways:

1. Aryan groups have more IVC ancestry than Iranian groups.

2. Iranian groups have significantly more BMAC (Bustan) ancestry than Aryan groups.

3. Iranian groups have significantly more Levant ancestry than Aryan groups who have none. (But we can dismiss this as a source of Iranian languages for obvious reasons).

4. Similar minor levels of Sintashta ancestry in all these groups. (avg 15%).

The almost complete absence of BMAC ancestry in available modern Brahmin groups, but a ~35% presence in Iranian groups points to BMAC ancestry as a possible origin for the Iranian language family.

CONCLUSION:

The null hypothesis that BMAC ancestry is significantly related to Iranian speaking modern groups whereas IVC-like ancestry is significantly related to Aryan speaking modern groups cannot be rejected if a simple t-test is conducted.  The differentiation is so clear that I do not even see a need to conduct such a formal test. Whereas Sintashta related steppe ancestry is equally related to both sets of groups in a lesser proportion.


In my next post, I'll write about the Iran/Armenian origin of Anatolian languages and prove the genetic absence of a steppe link. 

References:

Jeong, C., Wang, K., Wilkin, S., Taylor, W. T. T., Miller, B. K., Bemmann, J. H., et al. (2020). A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia’s eastern steppe. Cell, 183(4), 890-904.e29. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2020.10.015.

Sarianidi, V. (2014). The Indo-Iranian Problem in the Light of the Latest Excavations in Margiana. Studia Orientalia Electronica, 94, 417–442. Retrieved from https://journal.fi/store/article/view/43986


136 comments:

Assuwatama said...

Some Mitanni royal names like Artatama & Artashumara cognate well with names like Artaxérxēs (Ardashir) & Artabanus IV (Parthian).

On the other hand names like Vištâspa, Haxâmaniš, Parrattarna, Tushratta etc cognate well with Indic names.

Do you feel Wasashatta of Mitanni cognate well with Vasishtha of the Vedas?

Wonder if Mitanni were BMAC related or to be precise something like Baloch group with IVC:BMAC sort of ancestry.

vAsiSTha said...

Linguistics isn't my strong suit but Wasashatta does sound like VasisTha.

There is no archaeological link between steppe and Mitanni, but indeed there is with South asia - the peacock motif.

Assuwatama said...

Are profiles for Medes & Scythian groups like Massageatae similar?

Medes if I am not wrong are the first attested Iranian speaking group dated to 12-11th century bce.

"they occupied the mountainous region of northwestern Iran and the northeastern and eastern region of Mesopotamia located in the region of Hamadan (Ecbatana)."

Attested 100-200 years post Mitanni...Wonder if there is any connection.

vAsiSTha said...

Hasanlu IA sample from west iran has similar ancestry to Kurds. It's around the location you mention

Assuwatama said...

Thanks 🙏

Eco Breadfruit Hostel Ghana said...

Off-Topic, may I?

Keep going! - Rob (self-styled "Maestro" of archeogenetics) is getting so butt-hurt that I'm guessing he's currently frantically leafing through all his available sources in a probably vain last-ditch attempt to bring up just one valid counter-argument vis-à-vis your barrage of profound replies. So far, he was only able to resort to lame insults and faux self-aggrandisement.
As someone who doesn't really give a damn about where "Indo-Europeans" or anyone else came from (they were all "all-too-human" - my interest comes from a different angle - a bit like described in "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond), but strongly dislikes base-less hubris and chauvinism towards others, and whom furthermore the Eurogenes proprietor won't ever allow to comment, perhaps just because he dislikes my profile pic or location - it's a sight to behold. :)

vAsiSTha said...

@eco

Thanks.
Rob is a passionate guy, he sometimes gets carried away but.. it allows for good debate so I don't mind.

vAsiSTha said...

@Assuwatama

Hasanlu IA 900bce, Hasanlu, W Iran

Target: IRN_Hasanlu_IA
Distance: 2.3395% / 0.02339468
35.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
29.4 UZB_Bustan_BA
26.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
9.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.0 ARM_LBA
0.0 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.0 ARM_MBA
0.0 MNG_TUK001
0.0 PAK_Katelai_IA

30% BMAC ancestry

vAsiSTha said...

The well-woman from Alalakh, Levant 1500 bce. 75% ancestry from SC Asia and Iran, 25% from south asia. If there's a better model, let me know.

H2a3 mtDna, only found in Czech corded ware and England EBA, so minor steppe ancestry also mediated through mother i guess.

Target: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_o
Distance: 3.1158% / 0.03115763
47.6 UZB_Bustan_BA
27.6 MNG_TUK001
24.8 PAK_Katelai_IA
0.0 ARM_LBA
0.0 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.0 ARM_MBA
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
0.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

3rdacc said...

> While I feel that is a stretch, the evidence is strong that they were proto/Iranian speakers and had an IE culture.

why do you feel it is a stretch? IMO, proto iranians in 2100 BCE BMAC is simply too late. I have yet to read Sarianidi though, but his work shows that it is without a doubt iranic.

3rdacc said...

In relation to this new Turk001 sample, what do we know about early scythian samples in the Altai. I know that BMAC ancestry does exist amongst them, but whats the haplogroup distribution? A sizable percentage of SCA Y haplogroups would make a strong case for a southern origin of scythians.

vAsiSTha said...

"why do you feel it is a stretch? IMO, proto iranians in 2100 BCE BMAC is simply too late. I have yet to read Sarianidi though, but his work shows that it is without a doubt iranic."

Yea, I got no convincing reason one way or the other, however ive read that in later works Sarianidi himself dialed it back to BMAC being pre Zoroastrian.

vAsiSTha said...

"what do we know about early scythian samples in the Altai. I know that BMAC ancestry does exist amongst them, but whats the haplogroup distribution? A sizable percentage of SCA Y haplogroups would make a strong case for a southern origin of scythians."

This TUK001 ancestry existing till 300ce with negligible east asian ancestry is very unique and unexpected. It is not like the scythians, who always have some east asian ancestry.

In the saka samples so far, on the Y haplogroup you will see lot of R1a-Z2121 (steppe kind),and J2a, Q1b. The J2a is definitely southern.

3rdacc said...

> Yea, I got no convincing reason one way or the other, however ive read that in later works Sarianidi himself dialed it back to BMAC being pre Zoroastrian.

I have yet to read his work, but I feel he may have toned down his ideas due to pressure from steppe dogmatists. Just like what happened with Nichols.

> This TUK001 ancestry existing till 300ce with negligible east asian ancestry is very unique and unexpected. It is not like the scythians, who always have some east asian ancestry.

yes this sample is def not scythian, but a descendent of a Persian migrant.

>In the saka samples so far, on the Y haplogroup you will see lot of R1a-Z2121 (steppe kind),and J2a, Q1b. The J2a is definitely southern.

thanks for confirming. Scythians may have been formed in the Altai mountains through a partial male mediated transfer for language and culture. Both elites of steppe and BMAC joined together and mixed tribes, allowing the survival of both sets of paternal lineages and prevented the dominance of one over the other. The Q1b are the east asian elites.

gamerz_J said...

In regards to the debate at Eurogenes I enjoy all types of graphs and models etc, whether from you or Rob, and your debates are interesting regardless.

South Asian presence in the BA Middle East already was documented also in archaeology and there were these samples from Sumer that carried S.Asian mtDNA lineages.
(eg https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3770703/)

But, the South Asian admix in Kurds and Iranians, would that be BA-related or more recent? I recall a paper saying it was more recent although not certain about this.

vAsiSTha said...

@gamerj_z

Can't say for sure without samples.
Theres an M49 in Maykop too.

I think the migration ratcheted up post 2000bce.

Muthu said...

//Theres an M49 in Maykop too//

This is interesting. Source please. thanks

vAsiSTha said...

M52 rather, in Maykop Novosbodnaya

https://t.co/WMJ3v0ps9j

pg166

Anonymous said...

Is it even remotely possible that Centum IE was CHG specific and satem IE were IranN specific?

Genetically speaking.

dosas said...

Great stuff, as always. Looking forward to the Armenian/Iranian post, maybe cover how R-L584 fits in (if it does)?

vAsiSTha said...

Idk how to define a method to prove that.

Anonymous said...

Tocharians

Are they CHG or IranN shifted?

Anonymous said...

You have in your previous blogs shows steppe enolithic was 40% IranN/IndiaN.

Yamnaya which was CHG50% replaced West European male lineages and is a Centum IE speaking region.

vAsiSTha said...

? Yamnaya is not 50% CHG. Its ancestor is steppe_eneolithic and there's no additional Iran or CHG ancestry.

Steppe_en is 25-40% IndiaN. 10-25% CHG. Rest EHG.

vAsiSTha said...

"Tocharians

Are they CHG or IranN shifted?"

We don't have samples from the Tarim Basin from the Tocharian speaking period. The 2000bce Xiaohe samples have no IranN or CHG. Theyre just ANE + East asian.

Anonymous said...

sample: Alalakh MLBA o:Average
distance: 1.2986
Gonur1_BA: 87
Chemurchek_EBA_2: 13

vAsiSTha said...

@dosas

Sure, haven't focussed of L584 before.

vAsiSTha said...

Target: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_o
Distance: 2.4564% / 0.02456369
75.2 UZB_Bustan_BA
14.0 MNG_Chemurchek_EBA_2
7.6 PAK_Katelai_IA
3.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
0.0 ARM_LBA
0.0 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.0 ARM_MBA
0.0 CHN_Tarim_EMBA1
0.0 CHN_Tarim_EMBA2
0.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.0 MNG_TUK001
0.0 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
0.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

Yea this is a better fit, but chemurchek ancestry being present is so weird.

I think this is more realistic.

Target: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_o
Distance: 2.3229% / 0.02322857
56.0 UZB_Bustan_BA
25.8 KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA
10.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
7.6 PAK_Katelai_IA
0.6 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
0.0 ARM_LBA
0.0 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.0 ARM_MBA
0.0 CHN_Tarim_EMBA1
0.0 CHN_Tarim_EMBA2
0.0 KAZ_Dali_EBA
0.0 KAZ_Dali_MLBA
0.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.0 MNG_Chemurchek_EBA_2
0.0 MNG_TUK001
0.0 RUS_Afanasievo
0.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

Anonymous said...

Now I am confused

Aren't 3000bce Yamnaya samples EHG:CHG 50:50....or may be I am inferring from older data or probably wrong data ;)

What about samples from when language is attested? 5th-8th century AD.

Anonymous said...

If 2000bce there is no IranN/CHG or steppe in Tarim basin, on what basis linguists claim it's among the 1st to split from PIE?

Anonymous said...

In such a scenario Andronovo could be Tocharian speaking not Indo-Iranian?

vAsiSTha said...

"Aren't 3000bce Yamnaya samples EHG:CHG 50:50....or may be I am inferring from older data or probably wrong data ;)"

Yamnaya = Steppe-en + some 10-20% local ukrainian ancestry.
Steppe_en is not 50% CHG, but has IndiaN like ancestry, refer my older posts for that.

"What about samples from when language is attested? 5th-8th century AD."
No samples from tarim basin in this time frame have been analyzed.

"If 2000bce there is no IranN/CHG or steppe in Tarim basin, on what basis linguists claim it's among the 1st to split from PIE?"

2nd to split from PIE after Anatolian, on a purely linguistic basis

"In such a scenario Andronovo could be Tocharian speaking not Indo-Iranian?"

Maybe, cant say for sure.

Assuwatama said...

"It is absolutely clear that, on the turn of the third and second millennium BC, the whole of "Outer Iran" (and not only Bactria and Margiana) was the territory widely settled by Indo-Iranian (more precisely: Indo-Aryan) tribes. Their religious traditions be-came slightly transformed in the new homeland and gave birth to the first "world-wide" religion - Zoroastrianism."


That was a fascinating read :)

vAsiSTha said...

Indeed, its from V Sarianidi's paper
THE INDO IRANIAN PROBLEM IN THE LIGHT OF THE LATEST EXCAVATIONS IN MARGIANA

Anonymous said...

sample: Alalakh MLBA o:ALA019
distance: 1.8422
Sappali_Tepe_BA: 66.5
Chemurchek_EBA_2: 18.5
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1: 14
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 1

The Iranian groups require Iran Chl source, Baloch -Ganj Dareh

sample: Iranian Fars:Average
distance: 0.7476
Ebla_EMBA: 30.5
Sappali_Tepe_BA: 28
Sintashta_MLBA: 17.5
Seh_Gabi_C: 17
CG_IVCp: 3.5
Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave: 3.5


sample: Balochi:Average
distance: 1.6823
Otyrar_Antiquity: 48
Ganj_Dareh_N: 22.5
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 22.5
Levant_ISR_C: 7
Ebla_EMBA: 0
Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave: 0
Sappali_Tepe_BA: 0
Seh_Gabi_C: 0
Levant_JOR_EBA: 0
Gonur2_BA: 0
Bustan_BA: 0
MNG_TUK001: 0
Samdzong_1500BP: 0
Hasanlu_IA: 0

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

Mitanni belongs to Indic branch of Indo Iranian, but it branched out before Vedic Sanskrit and was subjected to some of the sound laws of the Iranic branch.

Anonymous said...

I am no expert but what are the basis to such claim?

According to AIMT model

Vedic 1200bce has "Sapta"
Avestan 1000bce has "Hapta"


Mitanni has "Satta" which is present in all modern IA. Mitanni is dated to ~1400bce. Vedic & Avestan must predate Mitanni.

Anonymous said...

Sapta > satta > sat

Other such examples of Sanskrit > Prakrit > Modern IA (say Hindi)

Skt. hasta "hand" > Pkt. hattha > hāth

rātri "night" > rattī > rāt

etc

Anonymous said...

Sanskrit - Sapta
Pali (Prakrit) - Satta
Mitanni - Satta

:)

Assuwatama said...

There are regions in India where I keep seeing this weird changes happening with alphabets

V > B (Vikram > Bikram)
Za > Ja (Zath > Jath)
Sa > Sha

In Mitanni we have "bi-ir-ya-ma-aš-da" interpreted as "Priyamazdha". š is pronounced as Sh right?

Shouldn't it be "Bīryamāshda"
Bīrya > Vīrya


Which means energy, Valour etc

Similarly Mitanni "pa-an-za-" to be interpreted as "Pānja"


Do you see where I am taking it?
Mitanni were from Punjab :)

Assuwatama said...

Similarly



bi-ir-ya-aš-šu-wa (Mitanni)

Interpreted as Priyāśva (whose horse is dear)



Should be interpreted as

Vīrya-ashva (valourous/splendourous horse)

Assuwatama said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Some V to B changes

Vir Bir
Vanga Banga
Vasant Basant
Vijay Bijay
Vishnoi Bishnoi
Vasudev Basudev
Vishesh Bishesh
Vani Bani


and so on ......

3rdacc said...

Mitanni is not pre vedic what so ever. This is another false twisting of facts by witzel that has become "truth" due to repeated citations over and over again.
Mitani has:
- assimilation of dissimilar plosives, sapta -> satta
- anaptxysis, indra -> indara
- v > b shifts
- r > ar shifts

the phonology shows prakritic type change, means its clearly post vedic.

Talageri also shows how the Mitanni names correspond to the Later Vedic period, not earlier.


vAsiSTha said...

Indeed. Agree with that asessment

postneo said...

Mazandaran and Baloch score high in BMAC. out of these Baloch are more notable because of geographical distance.

probably because of two way gene flow between meharugarh and jeitun/BMAC

We should also add Pathan as reference, to this since they are also Iranian speakers

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

Mitanni is not pre or post vedic, it is a divergent language, that diverged from some indo aryan language from some pre rig veda. It has the middle aryan pt -> tt, like sapta to satta. But it remains the pre vedic Indo Aryan: aika-vartana (a-i-ka-ua-ar-ta-an-na) , instead of eka, one. priyamazdha (bi-ir-ia-ma-as'-da).

It should be expected that other intermediary branches existed back then as it exists today, like Pamir, Nuristani and Dardic group. probably there should be even more divergent branches back then.

3rdacc said...

How is aika archaic? can't eka change to aika?

but I agree that mitanni may be its own divergent branch.

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

Because of other branches https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%C3%B3ynos

Assuwatama said...

Something unproven and unattested should not be used to prove or falsify something that is proven & attested.

Assuwatama said...

Ghoṭikā (घोटिका):—[ghoṭaka > ghoṭa > ghoda]

PIE - éḱwos & h₁éḱus

Doesn't appear to be derived from PIE

Modern IA word for horse sounds similar to;

Gothoi > Gothi > Gota > Goth
Nothing to do with horse though :)

Assuwatama said...

Hastinapur excavation ongoing :)

रविवार को पांडव टीला उल्टा खेड़ा से उत्खनन के दौरान भारतीय पुरातत्व सर्वेक्षण की टीम को ऐतिहासिक युग के कई प्राचीन अवशेष मिले। इनमें दो प्राचीन मनके, सिलबट्टा, प्राचीन मृदभांड, टेराकोटा की खिलौना गाड़ी का एक पहिया व टेराकोटा की डिस्क, टेराकोटा का प्राचीन झावा, हड्डियों के अवशेषों के साथ-साथ कार्बोनेटेड चावल, गेहूं, एवं उड़द की दाल के अवशेष प्राप्त हुए हैं। प्राचीन मिट्टी के बर्तनों के अवशेष टेराकोटा के अवशेष प्राप्त हो रहे हैं।

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.amarujala.com/amp/photo-gallery/uttar-pradesh/meerut/meerut-news-excavation-in-hastinapur-toys-found-see-photos

vAsiSTha said...

"It should be expected that other intermediary branches existed back then as it exists today"

RV and Avesta are preserved through speech. There is no evidence to suggest that there have been no changes in them since 1500bce.
There is a good claim that it is impossible to preserve all linguistic features over 1000s of years, there are changes even if the preservers don't recognise that there have been changes.

vAsiSTha said...

Edited the post to add a comparison between modern Aryan and Iranian groups. Aryan groups lack BMAC, whereas Iranian groups have 35% on average. This suggests a strong link between BMAC ancestry and Iranian language.

Assuwatama said...

Do you have Kshatriya caste samples?

Since most of the steppe central Asian people from Scythians to Kushanas etc became warrior castes, I wonder if Kshatriya castes would show elevated BMAC like ancestries.

Assuwatama said...

Is Levant Ashkelon somehow related to Assyrians?

If yes I would like to wager $1 on "Ahura Mazdha" being an Assyrian deity "Assura" absorbed in Iranian faith as these 2 groups BMAC & Assyrians interacted with each other.

+ Assurbanipals clay tablet attestation "Assara Mazesh" kind of hints towards it.

vAsiSTha said...

I have not tried various Levantine or near eastern ancestries as input, so consider the input as roughly near eastern rather than specifically ashkelon_lba

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

I don't understand your argument. I meant that if you had a certain divergence nowadays between PIA that indicates earlier branches than those in RV, more branches (now extinct) should exist in the bronze ages.
For example, in Italy, we only have the branches that come from Latin, but in the early Roman times, there were many more branches within Italic.

Anonymous said...

@ Neo

Baloch are not high BMAC but have it, WSHG in this people is much less, they mostly having same Iran_N type as that in SIS2 but extra of what they have which is why Iran_N required.


sample: Brahui:HGDP00005
distance: 2.7204
CG_IVCp: 47
Otyrar_Antiquity: 25.5
Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N: 16.5
Levant_JOR_EBA: 9
Chokhopani_2700BP: 2
Ebla_EMBA: 0
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1: 0
MNG_TUK001: 0

vAsiSTha said...

" more branches (now extinct) should exist in the bronze ages."

Yes more branches should exist sure.

But, wrt the statement that 'some Mitanni words are more archaic than Vedic'
There are scholars (Chatterji, Deshpande) who do not agree that the Vedas as we know them today got set in stone thousands of years back. They even disagree that the linguistic features of the recited Veda are common throughout the subcontinent (Northeast vs south).



vAsiSTha said...

@anon

sample: Brahui:HGDP00005
distance: 2.7204
CG_IVCp: 47
Otyrar_Antiquity: 25.5
Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N: 16.5
Levant_JOR_EBA: 9
Chokhopani_2700BP: 2
Ebla_EMBA: 0
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1: 0
MNG_TUK001: 0

It is pointless to use 8000bce samples like abdul_hosein to model modern people. It does not convey much useful information.

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

@vasistha Does any of these alternative versions have "aika" for "eka", one? I think that the larger is the variety of dialects found in the bronze age, the easier it is to push an earlier entrance of IA or any PIE language in India. That would mean that, no matter the state of affairs that RV was in, it would be already an old language there.

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

If you do look at the earliest distribution of IE languages in Roman times and try to overlap it with known cultures, each branch can hardly be ascribed an earlier date than 1400BCE. And each of these cultures don't seem to have a good continuity with earlier people. For example, there is a cultural gap, in my view from Bell Beaker and Corded Ware to what would come later.

That doesn't happen in India, where you can see a continuity with things like dolls in yogic position, same themes in seals and punch marked coins, the spoked wheel (in many seals and toys), the asvamedha represented in a golden plate (there is not the horse there, but there is the sacrificial pole and many animals tied). Maybe the horse is the unicorn, noting that only the head belongs to the horse, as the rest of the body is of a bull. Scythians put horns on horses, so that could be a reflection of this due cultural diffusion.

Assuwatama said...

ai = ए ?

How was ए written in cuneiform & its interpretation in english alphabets may help us understand this issue better.

I am also confused on why ए = e in English. Shouldn't ई = e be the correct way?

Balanced said...

Not sure if you realize, but with this post you just proved the opposite of what u were trying to prove.

1) No BMAC or noise levels in Aryan groups.
2) No IVC in the Iranian groups, who are geographically distant.
3) Only common ancestry btwn both groups is Steppe.
4) No Steppe in BMAC reference, or IVC reference, but Steppe is in all IE groups at varying levels.

Which genetically proves that BMAC had a language different than IVC, and PII/IIR is not represented by either,
since no overlapping ancestry component btwn BMAC or IVC.

It has been an endless wait for the right data to arrive out of India, but I doubt with the currently available data any original and non-mainstream insights can be derived.

Assuwatama said...

Iranian HG ancestry is common to both BMAC & IVC though the source for this is probably different.

Assuwatama said...

"Lubotsky pointed out that the phonological and morphological similarity of 55 loanwords in Iranian and in Sanskrit indicate that both share a common substratum, or perhaps two dialects of the same substratum. He concludes that the BMAC language of the population of the towns of Central Asia (where Indo-Iranians must have arrived in the 2nd millennium BC) and the language spoken in Punjab (see Harappan below) were intimately related."



Some scholars believe they spoke same language :)

vAsiSTha said...

@balanced

There is an IranN substratum common to both the bmac and IVC regions, much prior to the bronze age.
The bmac culture is Archaeologically much more closer to IIr culture than steppe ever will be.

If you want to believe that 15% steppe ancestry is responsible for complete language turnovers in the regions without leaving a written or spoken trace of the supposed substratum language, be my guest. But you likely have been fooled.

vAsiSTha said...

Lubotsky is a sub par linguist who has repeatedly made outright false claims about the Vedas, such as 'the Vedic people were nomadic pastoralists who did not know agriculture' and that 'Indo Iranians didn't have words for house or palace'

Assuwatama said...

😅

Not quoting him ever again ... 🙏

Balanced said...

@vashishta Your illustrations are not supporting your narrative and infact are contradictory, is what I wanted to point out.

Since you invoked IranN ancestry as the common link, it is a very old ancestry and cannot have been PIE by itself,
however IranN + something would have birthed PIE, its not clear when and where that happened.

Also it is easy to get fooled when one starts weaving narratives based on the ancestry components you see in tools like qpadm or G25.

For example take a look at this G25 ancestry distribution, based on the maximized ancestry components it is possible to weave a unrealistic narrative.

https://ibb.co/2YhhdsH

Balanced said...

Personally I wish to see established officially something close to OIT, but there has been zero data from this side to tie in.
All that is out there is only leading to multiples of Mr.Oak types, which is half truth + half pseudo -> leading to pseudo science.

Anonymous said...

@Daniel

Again I am no expert and only recently started learning Sanskrit that to using Hindi & devnagri.....but

अ + इ = ए
a + i = e

Which means Sanskrit एकः = aikah right?

So where is the problem?

Anonymous said...

Max Plank is calling PIE a Neolithic (8000-6000bce) phenomena with CHG/IranN as source.

Narsimhan claims this CHG/IranN like ancestry moving into mehargarh (South Asia) around 6000bce. Now was this before the Rakhigarhi findings or post it, I don't know.

Anonymous said...

Word for horse in Tamil is "Kutirai"
Why is there a word that too unrelated to Sanskrit "Ashva" when claims are of 0 horses in India.

Kudure in Kannada
kutira in Malayalam
Gurram in Telgu which appears cognate with Arya word for female horse:)

Anonymous said...

* before 6000bce not around 6000bce

Anonymous said...

Read if you haven't "THE INDO.IRANIAN PROBLEM IN THE LIGHT OFTHE LATEST EXCAVATIONS IN MARGIANA" by Victor Sarianidi.

You will get the rough idea of what is being talked about.

vAsiSTha said...

@balanced
"Your illustrations are not supporting your narrative and infact are contradictory, is what I wanted to point out.

Since you invoked IranN ancestry as the common link, it is a very old ancestry and cannot have been PIE by itself,
however IranN + something would have birthed PIE, its not clear when and where that happened."

There is no contradiction. If my claim is that the BMAC region was already Iranian speaking, and the IVC region was already Indo-Aryan speaking. Then how does my post contradict that assumption? BMAC heavy groups are Iranian speaking, IVC heavy groups are Aryan speaking. That's a fact.

"For example take a look at this G25 ancestry distribution, based on the maximized ancestry components it is possible to weave an unrealistic narrative.

https://ibb.co/2YhhdsH"

Indeed, it is easy to mislead when one makes models with distances of 5%, 7%. Those models are trash. I ensure that my worst model is below 3% and best below 2% distance on G25.

For qpAdm, it is simple - Models with p-value above 0.05 are worth considering (with a good predefined set of right populations).


"Since you invoked IranN ancestry as the common link, it is a very old ancestry and cannot have been PIE by itself,
however IranN + something would have birthed PIE, its not clear when and where that happened."

Indeed 8000bce Zagros IranN being PIE is not my claim. I have already stated that the somewhere in the large SC asia - North Iran - Punjab 5000bce was probably the PIE region. That's my working hypothesis. BMAC is inside this region (though later in time).

vAsiSTha said...

I have added this to the post

"The null hypothesis that BMAC ancestry is significantly related to Iranian speaking modern groups whereas IVC-like ancestry is significantly related to Aryan speaking modern groups cannot be rejected if a simple t-test is conducted. The differentiation is so clear that I do not even see a need to conduct such a formal test. Whereas Sintashta related steppe ancestry is equally related to both sets of groups, in a lesser proportion."

Assuwatama said...

Pushans chariot is pulled by goats/ram.

Saw your post about Minoan representation of Goat pulled chariot. Aren't Minoans also 30-35% Iranian related?

vAsiSTha said...

Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
Distance: 0.9463% / 0.00946291
40.0 GRC_Peloponnese_N
31.2 TUR_Arslantepe_LC
22.2 TUR_Barcin_N
6.6 BGR_C

Minoans have about 30% Arslantepe_C ancestry, which itself is roughly 50% KuraAraxes.

Anonymous said...

Iron Age began around ~1300bce in India. Though R. Tewari (2003) radiocarbon dated iron artefacts in Uttar Pradesh, including furnaces, tuyeres and slag between c. 1800 and 1000 BCE.

~1360-1332bce Mitanni king gifted grandfather of Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamen, an Iron dagger made from a meteorite.


Iron technology lead to a rapid clearance of Forest lands in Gangetic plains which lead to mass migration of Harappans into the heartland of India.

vAsiSTha said...

Where is the proof that the iron for the dagger was from India?

Anonymous said...

That is definitely not what I meant. It was from space meteorite and fell in Syria as the same dagger is mentioned in the tablets .... Previously thought to be from Egypt

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencealert.com/the-mysterious-origins-of-king-tutankhamen-s-space-rock-dagger-just-got-clearer/amp


I should have made separate posts for both ^_^
It seems that came out as stupid

vAsiSTha said...

I know the 2017 Laziridis paper says that steppe or armenia is the source of ancestry for Myceneans, but in G25, i see armenia preferred everytime.


Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.4340% / 0.01433982
24.4 BGR_Late_C
24.2 BGR_C
23.6 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
12.0 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
8.6 GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA
2.4 GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
2.2 ARM_LBA
1.4 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
1.2 GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras
0.0 ARM_MBA
0.0 BGR_EBA
0.0 BGR_EBA_contam
0.0 BGR_IA
0.0 BGR_Middle_C
0.0 BGR_MLBA
0.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
0.0 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
0.0 Yamnaya_BGR
0.0 Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
0.0 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.0 Yamnaya_UKR
0.0 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o

dosas said...

It's also very easy to model Minoans in qpAdm as 2-way: Peloponnese_N+Iran_Ganj_Dareh_N and Myceneans as 3-way: Minoans+Yamnaya_Samara+Iran_Ganj_Dareh_N.

https://pastebin.com/HR59qsZt

vAsiSTha said...

@dosas

Interesting. G25 chooses Arm_lba over Yamnaya. I'll probably test it out in qpAdm after anatolia. From what I have analyzed so far, north Greece (in Logkas_MBA) sees Steppe ancestry missing in the south. Logkas_MBA is also very similar to modern Albanians. Whereas Greek_crete moderns are highly arm_lba shifted.

Imo, this explains Armenian-Greek closeness very well.

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.8865% / 0.01886475
51.2 BGR_C
28.6 ARM_LBA
20.2 BGR_Late_C
0.0 SRB_BA_Maros
0.0 Yamnaya_BGR
0.0 Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
0.0 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.0 Yamnaya_UKR
0.0 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 1.9858% / 0.01985772
51.4 ARM_LBA
30.4 BGR_Late_C
14.2 BGR_C
4.0 SRB_BA_Maros
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

vAsiSTha said...

Target: GRC_Logkas_MBA
Distance: 1.1251% / 0.01125074
37.0 BGR_C
35.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
27.4 BGR_Late_C
0.6 ARM_LBA
0.0 SRB_BA_Maros

vAsiSTha said...

Ok, let me run G25 again with Peloponnese_N instead of Bulgaria_C.

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 2.0755% / 0.02075525
46.6 ARM_LBA
40.0 GRC_Peloponnese_N
13.4 SRB_BA_Maros
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara


Target: GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA
Distance: 1.8614% / 0.01861399
91.6 GRC_Peloponnese_N
5.0 SRB_BA_Maros
2.6 ARM_LBA
0.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara


Target: GRC_Logkas_MBA
Distance: 1.4976% / 0.01497647
47.4 GRC_Peloponnese_N
26.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
23.0 SRB_BA_Maros
2.8 ARM_LBA


Target: GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
Distance: 1.4360% / 0.01436015
86.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
13.2 ARM_LBA
0.0 SRB_BA_Maros
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara


Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.8162% / 0.01816222
62.4 GRC_Peloponnese_N
31.0 ARM_LBA
6.6 SRB_BA_Maros
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara


Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
Distance: 1.6809% / 0.01680921
96.4 GRC_Peloponnese_N
3.6 ARM_LBA
0.0 SRB_BA_Maros
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

dosas said...

It would be interesting to try to model Myc as Peloponnese_N + Arm_EBA.

dosas said...

Also, modern Cretans model well with ARM_LBA because the island was decimated during the Byzantine reconquista of 961 from the Arabs; then repopulated with settlers from the Black Sea and Armenia (and also veteran Varangian Rus).

Pontics from the Eastern Black Sea can be modeled easily using ARM_LBA, also, so it makes sense that Cretans would also show preference.

vAsiSTha said...

@dosasw whats your opinion on proto Greek entering Greece? Timing?

Mycenaean onwards or earlier?

dosas said...

This is a huge subject in local archaeology. There are those who support that Linear A (Minoan) is also Greek.

I am agnostic, but I do find fascinating the fact that Myceneans carry J haplogroups and Iran_N (related?) admixture (also noted in the 2017 paper).

3rdacc said...

I don't know when exactly Greeks entered, I have yet to study that side of the Indo European world. But their presence in the Aegean may have been cut short just like IA presence in India because of the need to match with the steppe expansion timeframe.

I have heard of some archaeologists saying that significant material culture changes really happened way back in the beginning of third millenium BCE, and not so much in the period of 1700-1500 BCE. But I have forgotten the source.


@dosas

There is also a theory by Finkelberg that Minoan is an Anatolian civilization.

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

Aika rendered like this, in cuneiform: a-i-ka-

I think the cultural link between PIA and the other branches are nearly non existent. The common themes are clearly of Mesopotamian influence, and these are the conserved words, like Morning star/Venus/Aurora, Sky Father, and such. Every other thing is generic stuff of the bronze ge.

So, I think this OIT or invasionism are non sense. PIA is clearly, in my opinion, a unique cultural branch that is related to, at least, what we see in Harappa/Vedic cultures and Zoroaster/Avesta. It doesn't matter where it comes, really, because it was all erased.

I don't think PIE comes from the Steppe, though, but from the Middle East, specially because of the primacy of the number 7 that is shared with the Semitic branch and other generic cultural theems that I cited before.

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

What I meant is that it doesn't matter where PIE came from, because it was much erased in the transition to PIA, except for the Mesopotamian themes.

3rdacc said...

Indo-Iranian is in a close grouping with armenian and greek. Lets say that the greeks and armenians were in the middle east before PIIr left to go east. Armenian and Greek would show strong conservancy in terms of lexicon. However this is not the case as Greek has a huge non IE substratum of semitic and kartvelian and Armenian shows evidence of Hurrian borrowings. Greek and Armenian are clearly intrusive to the middle east. So the location where the greco-armenian-aryan group was at can not be the middle east.

The Anatolian data too shows that the Anatolians were intrusive to the middle east. The Anatolian/ME homeland doesn't seem too strong considering there is little conservancy amongst IE groups in that area.

I think if you want something besides OIT or steppe invasion, a South-Central Asian homeland proposed by the likes of Kozintsev seems like a better option.

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

@3rdacc The 2 branches that have the most probability of forming a large sub branch of PIE is Italic + Celtic and, perhaps, Anatolian (and Tocharian) + the Rest. Every other possible sub-grouping has a shaky basis and there is no agreement upon an order.

But even Anatolian might not be that divergent, just like Tocharian. They could just be well grammatically inovative a lot while being phonetically conservative, conserving at least one of the so called laryngeals. But note that RV and the oldest Gathas conserve traces of laryngeals too.

vAsiSTha said...

Anatolian branch is from Kura araxes in Armenia.

Armenia is also probably the origin of Greek branch. Then Greek would have fallen under Balkan IE influence.

Anonymous said...

Is the argument being made that Minoans were IE but not Greek type?

vAsiSTha said...

Some do make the claim that Minoan is IE too. Not too well read on this.

3rdacc said...

@Daniel

I don't mean Graeco-Armenian-Aryan as a single PIE dialect, I mean it as a group of greek, armenian and IIr dialects who resided in the same area and developed shared isoglosses.

> But note that RV and the oldest Gathas conserve traces of laryngeals too.

I have never heard of this before, can I get a source?


@vAsiSTha

> Anatolian branch is from Kura araxes in Armenia.

What cultures do you think Greek and Armenian are corresponding to?

> Armenia is also probably the origin of Greek branch. Then Greek would have fallen under Balkan IE influence.

Kozintsev writes about how Anatolian can't have come from the balkans whatsoever. Similarly, there is scant evidence of balkan influence in Greek and Armenian. All non IE influences are middle eastern and from the caucasus.

Anonymous said...

40% Iranian like ancestry you advocating in steppe enolithic, Is it female derived or both?

What %age of Iranian specific X & Y Haplogroups are present in steppe enolithic and modern populations?

vAsiSTha said...

@anon

Steppe eneolithic has only few samples, 2 males are R1b-V1636 iirc. This is also present in modern China, but haven't found any in the scant ancient dna of the east so far.

Apart from that few haplos have been found in the Caucasus region, L1a in areniC, L in maykop, and mtDna M52 in maykop.

Nothing concrete yet, need 5000bce samples from east iran and SC asia, india.

vAsiSTha said...

@3rdacc

Anatolia got 50% Kura araxes ancestry starting 4000bce. No other external ancestry. So that explains Anatolian branch.

Greece north sees modern Albanian like ancestry (which has steppe) in 2000bce logkas_mba. But in south it sees a lot of armenia_eba, mba or lba type ancestry starting eba time and is clear in 1300bce mycenaean samples. This explains Armenian closeness to Greek.

So it sort of supports an Armeno-greek branch, with Greek first to split out from proto Armeno-greeks.

This is the hypothesis I'm working with.

3rdacc said...

@vAsiSTha

Yes this makes sense. I remember reading an excerpt from the book "Greeks and Pre-Greeks", that they have not found any archaeological evidence of migrations of the proto-greeks from the balkans.

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

@vasistha Why Anatolian corresponds to Kura Axes?

@3rdacc Yes, Greek has Anatolian suffixes in many of its names. So, it does seem that it spent a long time coexisting with them. But why do you put Armenian with them? No matter if the urhaimat is in Middle East/Northern Iran/Armenia and in the Steppe, Armenian should have moved a lot. But, it doesn't seem to be specially close to Greek.

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

@3fdacc Here's some papers critical o the view of laryngeal in RV https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1515/jsall-2018-0010
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262727586_Laryngeal_traces_without_laryngeals_in_Vedic_metre

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ibk/64/3/64_KJ00010257965/_pdf/-char/ja

Comments on laryngeals in Avesta and RV: https://www.jstor.org/stable/24653582

vAsiSTha said...

"Why Anatolian corresponds to Kura Axes?"

Because genetics agrees with archaeology that there was a major KA incursion into Anatolia around 4000-3500bce. There is no other external genetic signal in Anatolia till even 1500bce.

vAsiSTha said...

http://www.spekali.tsu.ge/index.php/en/article/viewArticle/2/16

For KA and anatolian, read

Nikoloz Silagadze "The Homeland Problem of Indo-European Language-Speaking Peoples"

3rdacc said...

@Daniel

Thank you for sending those papers, I will take a look.

Anonymous said...

"The complete absence of BMAC ancestry in modern Aryan groups, but a ~35% presence in Iranian groups points to BMAC ancestry as a possible origin for the Iranian language family."


Hey @vasistha, I think you are incorrect about complete absence of BMAC ancestry in indo-aryan groups. As far as I know, North West indians and pakistanis, who are indo-aryan speaking groups have decent BMAC ancestry in them. Selecting eastern and southern brahmin samples and then claiming thst Indo-aryan speaking pops have no BMAC is not accurate.

Please put North west indians, Indus and pakistani groups on G25 and lets check.

vAsiSTha said...

I have used all available Iranian speaking and brahmin groups from G25. Don't think I missed any.

vAsiSTha said...

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html?m=1

Check modern averages link and tell me which one of iranian speaking /brahmin groups i have missed. I'll add them.

Anonymous said...

"I have used all available Iranian speaking and brahmin groups from G25. Don't think I missed any."

No i meant why not add NW indian and pakistani IA speaking samples to verify "no BMAC ancestry in aryan groups theory". You have taken interior indian Brahmin samples as proxies for IA groups.
Are there no non-dalit NW imdian and pakistani IA speaking samples on G25 ?

vAsiSTha said...

Ok, point taken. I didn't analyze all Aryan groups, just Brahmins so I changed the wording to this.

"The almost complete absence of BMAC ancestry in available modern Brahmin groups, but a ~35% presence in Iranian groups points to BMAC ancestry as a possible origin for the Iranian language family."


I ran the above model on NW Indian non-Brahmins. Get avg 12% BMAC ancestry in NW Indians and Pakistanis, Iranians have 35%.

Screenshot here
https://imgur.com/a/ZNx8PZJ

Anonymous said...

How much % Rus MLBA and Bustan BA does the Scythian samples show?

vAsiSTha said...


Target: KAZ_Wusun
Distance: 1.6064% / 0.01606409
52.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
26.4 UZB_Bustan_BA
20.8 MNG_Khovsgol_BA
0.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.0 Birhor
0.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.0 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP


Target: KAZ_Kangju
Distance: 0.9251% / 0.00925121
58.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
26.4 UZB_Bustan_BA
13.4 MNG_Khovsgol_BA
1.4 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.0 Birhor
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.0 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP

Both Kangju and Wusun are supposedly Iranian speakers.

Assuwatama said...

12% BMAC ancestry appears pure that is without kura-araxes & Lavant type ancestries...

It's kinda interesting.

Does this mean this admixture of BMAC into North West Indians happened prior to it's admixture with KA & Levante.

What does it mean for the 300bce-300ce central Asian nomadic invasions of India? It appears elite domination with no mass movement of central Asians.

What are admixture dates for this Levant/KA into BMAC type ancestries?

Assuwatama said...

Are Tajikistan Iron Age 1200bce to 100ce ancestries also carry Levant/Kura-Araxes component? Or is it specific only to western Iranian groups?

comet said...

@Balanced
"Since you invoked IranN ancestry as the common link, it is a very old ancestry and cannot have been PIE by itself" (Balanced on 23 Feb 2022, 12:56 PM)

Max Planck geneticist Johannes Krause, in "A Short History of Humanity: A New History of Old Europe" (2021), associates PIE with Iran Neolithic-like ancestry, thus placing its homeland in north Iran (chapter 6). Because IranN-like is old, he argues PIE goes back to at least 11kbp and that its breakup or MRCA was at 8kbp:

"The origins of Indo-European must therefore date back at least 11,000 years, not 8,000, making the Anatolian theory moot. Proponents of the steppe theory had a similar problem, because their model was equally irreconcilable with the evidence that the most recent common ancestor of all Indo-European languages existed 8,000 years ago." (p.131)

If you disagree, please write your concerns directly to Krause/Max Planck.

If PIE's linguistic timeframes could be adjusted in this way to fit with IranN-like genetics in an Iran setting, it means both that such early dates are actually considered and allowed as a possibility and that IranN-like ancestry's associations with PIE cannot be ruled out for mere reason of its antiquity.

comet said...

@Anonymous who wrote on February 24, 2022 at 2:00 PM

"Is the argument being made that Minoans were IE but not Greek type?"

You can consult Margalit Finkelberg's "The Language of Linear A - Greek, Semitic or Anatolian?" (JIES Monograph No. 38, Edited by Robert Drews, 2000) for the case that the language of Linear A, that is Minoan, is an Anatolian language.
https://www.academia.edu/24273902/The_Language_of_Linear_A_Greek_Semitic_or_Anatolian

If you're asking about Minoan genetics, both Lazaridis et al 2017 in "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" and Clemente et al 2021 in "The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations" confirm these Anatolian IE speakers differed from the Greek IE speaking Mycenaeans by a lack of any steppe admixture. This also implies that PIE speakers lacked steppe admixture also.

vAsiSTha said...

"Are Tajikistan Iron Age 1200bce to 100ce ancestries also carry Levant/Kura-Araxes component? Or is it specific only to western Iranian groups?"

It's not there in Iron age tajikistan.
It seems specific to central & western iran and kurds etc.

Anonymous said...

@Vashista, those Northern South Asian groups show significant continuity with SPGT like populations but with more Steppe MLBA and in some of them, heavy Kushan admixture, models of them need more than SIS2 average than what you have used, the admixture coefficients look like they came from a Takirbai related sample, as well a BA Siberian source is needed, Sintashta does not suffice, since it does not carry it.

sample::Punjabi Jatt 15 AVG
distance: 0.8254
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3: 38
Gonur1_BA: 23
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 26
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 7.5
Srubnaya_MLBA_o: 4
Chokhopani_2700BP: 1.5
Dzharkutan1_BA: 0
Gonur2_BA: 0
KAZ_Botai: 0

sample: Khatri:Average
distance: 0.8292
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3: 41
Gonur1_BA: 30
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 20
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 4.5
Srubnaya_MLBA_o: 2
Chokhopani_2700BP: 2.5
Dzharkutan1_BA: 0
Gonur2_BA: 0
KAZ_Botai: 0


sample: Punjabi Sikh India:Average
distance: 0.8504
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3: 44.5
Gonur1_BA: 24
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 22.5
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 4
Srubnaya_MLBA_o: 3.5
Chokhopani_2700BP: 1.5
Dzharkutan1_BA: 0
Gonur2_BA: 0
KAZ_Botai: 0

sample: Kashmiri Pakistan:Average
distance: 0.9705
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3: 43.5
Gonur1_BA: 25.5
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 16
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 5.5
Srubnaya_MLBA_o: 5
Chokhopani_2700BP: 4.5
Gonur2_BA: 0
KAZ_Botai: 0


The Sikhs seem to show significant Kushan admixture

sample: Punjabi Sikh India:Average
distance: 1.0442
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3: 50.5
TKM_IA: 32.5
IA_Rabat: 14.5
Tarim_EMBA1: 2.5


The Kamboj quite shockingly can be modeled as more than half Kushan


sample: Kamboj:Average
distance: 0.9531
IA_Rabat: 52
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 45
Tarim_EMBA1: 3

vAsiSTha said...

SiSBA3 is a low-quality sample and should not be used even in G25. Just 70k snp hits on autosomal targets.

I leave model finetuning to qpAdm formal stats which ends up rejecting most g25 based models bandied about on forums, G25 should only be used for rough modeling.

vAsiSTha said...

Also, I don't know what Rabat_IA is, what sample id is that? I have never seen it in any database.

I ran the NW indians with Kushana samples from Ksirov as well as TKM_IA. Sikhs or anyone else scores noise level % from both of these, sintashta is chosen above them. Kamboj does show relatively high BMAC than others though.

Yes NW indians do show some input from Swat_IA type ancestry due to proximity but that is missing from Brahmins from Guj, TN, UP etc.

https://imgur.com/Rg3p9tz

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

@Vasistha Why do you think genes are so much related to genes? I follow your studies because it shows that there is no genetic flow from the steppes that justifies a language change or at least it is not the only one. It could merely happen by diffusion by elites, like Latin spread.

3rdacc said...

@Daniel

for a supposed elite spread,

1) we still do not find the slightest inkling of archaeological evidence of this elite introgression

2) it is also difficult to find a massive linguistic substratum. There are only a few words in the Rg Veda that has solid non-indo-aryan etymology. Witzel and Lubotsky are just wrong in their identification of "austric" or "bmac" words. They pass off their weak etymologies and definete proof. If an elite rule did happen, IA and IIr would have a massive substratum of the languages IVC and bronze age iran and turan. Yet we do not see this. Compare this to european languages which have noticeable kartvelian, vasconic, uralic and afro-asiatic substratums.

vAsiSTha said...

@daniel

From my studies, the introduction of IE languages in all cases seems to be related to 40%+ ancestry.

Daniel de França MTd2 said...

@Vasistha There is a large gap to the first attesting of a IE. I can understand that for Indo Ayran, after all, that's a huge territory, with many mountains in between, and with a good cultural continuity up to eneolithic, at least, including one of the main areas of IA, including South of the Caucasus (NE Iran and Armenia), also known as Armenian Urhaimat. I agree with this view with PIE in relation to PIA.

But the other branches, I cannot see too much cultural continuity. Perhaps, the genetic diffusion is only restricted to IA.

vAsiSTha said...

Romance languages spread with 40-50% Italian Roman ancestry in Iberia on a basque substrate.
Anatolian languages spread with 50% kura-araxes ancestry.
Germanic, Celtic languages spread with 50-80% steppe ancestry.
Indo Aryan in east India Munda region.

Every language turnover in a large region has to be accompanied by a large genetic turnover. Elite dominance seems to give loanwords in most cases, that's all.

vAsiSTha said...

New post is up.

Tvran said...

Isn't that sample a Parthian? (Seems to match modern day Khorasanis)

and that's not really the correct way to model Balochs, or any of the other pops well, you will have to model Balochs the same way as other south central asian Iranics, and not western Iranians, despite a western Iranian language, Balochs are geneticslly not western Iranians, they seem more IVC and Steppe shifted

blogmaster said...

Did you try running it with Anatolian?

vAsiSTha said...

"and that's not really the correct way to model Balochs, or any of the other pops well, you will have to model Balochs the same way as other south central asian Iranics, and not western Iranians, despite a western Iranian language, Balochs are geneticslly not western Iranians, they seem more IVC and Steppe shifted"

Baloch have a strong Iran_Wezmeh_N western component which other pakistanis/indians dont have.

Finitowilliams said...

Very interesting BMAC connection to Iranian. However, keep in mind there is vast amount of unsampled space (in E Iran) between BMAC and Hasanlu (Jiroft/Marhashi), so its not certain there was direct vector between BMAC and Iranians.