Since the 2019 Narasimhan et al paper on Swat Valley, Pakistan samples was published, one of the key questions which remained was — When did the steppe ancestry seen in modern Indians and Pakistanis enter mainland India?
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| Burzahom Site: Location and few pictures of the site. |
Sure, the Swat valley samples from 1200–800 BCE show steppe ancestry, but when did it enter what is now modern Pakistan? The papers claims that this happened between 1800–1500 BCE, however ancient human samples till 1500 BCE in neighbouring Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) show very little evidence of steppe people having traversed there. Crossing BMAC is a must to get from Steppe to Pakistan, so the question remained.
We may have the answer through preliminary results obtained by one of the top Indian researchers in the field of population genetics, Dr. Niraj Rai. In a conference 3 weeks ago posted on Youtube, he let slip one of his unpublished findings — That there is no steppe autosomal ancestry to be found in north India till 1300 BCE, although he refrained from stating the site explicitly. Upon going through his talk, I think the only plausible sample he is talking about is from the site of Burzahom, near Srinagar, Kashmir. We shall see if my educated guess was correct.
When did the steppe ancestry reach mainland India? Or was it localized to other regions than Kashmir? Question remains open.
99 comments:
The first mixing of Indian neolithic with steppe must have happened around 1500 BC but outside the subcontinent, in the IAMC.
If Vedic speaking people entered India post 1200bce how would they explain indo-Aryan Prakrit languages like Pali and Maghadi which were spoken in Eastern India from around 800bce but from the same time period in Iran Parsua people were speaking a language which was much closer to Sanskrit.
Though attestation of both languages is post 500bce but it's fair to assume it was spoken before that as has been mentioned Buddha preached in language of masses.
That leaves too little time for an unknown language family to be replaced by Sanskrit and later evolving into Prakrits.
I think he is also talking about Painted Grey Samples (PGW), i remember niraj rai once posted a cryptic comment on facebook which made it seem as if his team hasn't found stepe ancestry in autosomes in PGW samples.
May be.
Pretty sure it's burzahom though
"Mathieson & Reich (2015) analyzed the remains of an individual from Samara Oblast, Russia, dated c. 380–200 bce and ascribed to the Scythian cultures. The individual was found to belong to haplogroup R1a1a1b2a2a. This lineage is associated with earlier Srubnaya culture of the Pontic–Caspian steppe, which again traces its origin to the Yamnaya culture."
Iranian speaking Scythians dominated eastern Europe. How much East Asian ancestry is there among the pontic steppe Scythians?
"The Scythian groups of the Pontic Steppe and South Siberia had significantly different paternal genetics, which indicates that the Pontic and South Siberian Scythians had completely different paternal origins, with almost no paternal gene flow between them."
Etruscan and Latins were genetically same but spoke entirely different language families.
Minoans and the Mycenaean Greeks were genetically highly similar - but not identical - Mycenaean carried additional 15% pontic steppe ancestry. Language family was different.
Brahui and Blochi are genetically same but languages again are different.
Burzahom is in the Srinagar Valley and as a rule, this is one of the most insular, least accessible places from the North West. From the plains of Punjab, yes. But not directly from the North West.
Kashmir was famously able to retain its provincial character right into the middle of the 15th century. One should note that, the most accurate historical accounts of the Mauryan Era was found in Rajataramgini (by Kalhana in Kashmir) and the Arthashastra was found in a Kingdom of Mysore Library in the deep South.
From a genetics point of view, this is bad. I really expect the Kashmiris to be the last to get admixed from a historical perspective. It is true even in the modern era - right down to today, this insularity extends.
Geographically speaking, I am inclined to think that the Steppes admixture happened across the plains of Punjab, whenever it happened. And it happened in peacetime, not as a military campaign.
Almost all of Alexander's hagiographers note the impossibility of fording the Five Rivers. Ford possibilities are very very few and these were well defended by archers and massed infantry.
A passage could only be negotiated - for trade and travel. Not for nothing, ancient Indian commentators called India "Jambudvipa" - an island covered by concentric circles of water (the fiver rivers flowing from the Himalayas to the Arabian Sea). Only the arrival of gunpowder/cannons and bad tactics tilt the balance.
Therefore it is historically a very pertinent question on when and where did the Steppes component cross into Indians. Looking forward to these papers.
The other possibility is that ancient Indians (merchants, administrators) from Empires settled in the North West, took local wives and brought them back.
Agreed bruin, but burzahom had contcts with harrapans as well.
"The report links the neolithic site to its contemporary Indus Valley civilisation and establishes the inhabitants’ regular trade with the Harappans.
Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/content/628926/a-site-reminds-kashmir-its.html"
So in 500yrs since the touted steppe entry dte of 1800bce, one would expect to see some steppe ancestry in burzahom.
As per some legends Kashmir was inhabited by Nagas before Aryas took over.
Naga race in north-west India was almost exterminated by Janamejaya, the Kuru king in Arjuna's line, who conducted the massacre of Nagas at Takshasila. This massacre was stopped by Astika, a Brahmin who was son of Manasa the sister of all Nagas and Sage Jaratkaru.
Legends Myths or Real events .....
God knows x_x
As per some scholars Andronovo were proto-indo-Iranian and what we see at Sanauli is a sign of first wave.
Somehow it appears spoke wheel cart makers of Sintashta/Andronovo forget this art along with Pottery making in less than a century.
As neither carts nor Pottery show any resemblance to each other.
Yes indeed Burzhom were in contact with Harappans. There is Harappan site down south in Akhnoor called Manda.
1500-1200 bce Rig Veda mentions Sindhu and Gandhari
1000-800 bce Atharva Veda also mentions Ghandara and far eastern region Magadh
500bce old Persian inscription also mentions Sindhu (Hindush) and Gandhara.
Too short a time for an unknown language family of Harappans to disappear.
It was possibly only if ancestry of South Asians and Iranians had a larger chunk from steppe. Instead most people average out at 15-20%.
The case in Europe can't be applied here which saw several large scale replacements.
Nearly all Iranian tribes (Persians Massagate Saka Media Parathia) popped up West of Indus post 1100bce
What little I have read Scythian religion; it's quite distinct from the Vedic religion which shows similarities to Mitanni deities and some Kassite deities like Bugaš, Maruttaš, Šuriaš etc
I watched his recent talk in "Vaad" youtube channel and he said that steppe ancestry does not enter into India until 700 BCE. I am not sure if he explicitly made claim of 1300 BC, I will rewatch this video of his again.
As far as the SWAT aDNA is concerned, the skeletons do belong to 1200-800 BC but the admixture dates are from ~1800 BC to 1400 BC.
What issues do you recon there are with their admixture dates of SWAT and also of the modern population?
Although I do believe that their chosen 29 year per generation is a bit high, what is your take on it? are there any other issues?
Although Narasimham claims that mixing of steppe with IVC cline is multi layered, yet they are pointing to dates per the AIT.
I don't know
What we do know is swat valley which is gateway to Indian subcontinent has too low steppe in 1200bce-800bce samples more so mediated through females.
Large chunk is still Harappan related. That means not many people came through.
How is it possible that languages of this group which was probably Gandhari Prakrit or it's proto-version switched from Harappan language in 400 years. When ancestry clearly shows natives out numbered those who came from steppe.
Unless you believe steppe women were the elites and dominated Harappan men ^_^
"I watched his recent talk in "Vaad" youtube channel and he said that steppe ancestry does not enter into India until 700 BCE. I am not sure if he explicitly made claim of 1300 BC, I will rewatch this video of his again."
1300bce is from direct aDna sample (so its a hard fact), 700bce et al will be from coalescence date calcultions - indirect.
"As far as the SWAT aDNA is concerned, the skeletons do belong to 1200-800 BC but the admixture dates are from ~1800 BC to 1400 BC."
it can be fudged and tweaked, not a hard fact. plus the model used for alder was swat=indus + steppe, wheres it is ctully indus+bmac+steppe.
Hardly any evidence of steppe in BMAC graves till 1500bce. So their theory becomes that steppe people did not mix with BMAC but jumped ahead to mix in subcontinent as if they had had an agreement.
another justification given by Narasimhan is that there was east asian in steppe post 1500bce. That is not true (kashkarchi 1100bce).
to sum up - i think the 1800-1500 dates calculated by Narasimhan have been massaged.
Samples from SWAT valley don't prove or solve the puzzle of Indo Europeanization.
Sanauli 2000bce was already Vedic as per the burials. Did swat valley burials show any resemblance to Sanauli burial?
SWAT valley admixture post 1800bce probably point to even later admixture in Vedic heartland.
But Vedic heartland was already Vedic before the admixture dates for swat.
Don't you guys find it interesting that in middle of countless Persian tribes Elamities survived as late as 300bce
In India language of Harappa (if its anything other than Aryan/Prakrit) disappeared in such a short time that 0 evidence of such a language is found post 1900bce..... supposedly 100 years after Proto-Indo-Iranian migration into Sanauli.
It would be a huge help if anybody can point to a date of disappearance of Harappan seals.
One interesting pointer is the use of Aramaic in one of the Ashokan edicts in Afghanistan.
Your take on:
https://www.academia.edu/36998766/Five_waves_of_Indo-European_expansion_a_preliminary_model_2018_
"It was possibly only if ancestry of South Asians and Iranians had a larger chunk from steppe. Instead most people average out at 15-20%."
Lol why this assumption that large chunk of ancestry of south asians had to be from steppe ?
Its the ancestry in the socially dominant castes which would matter right ? And on top that, i don't think ~25% Steppe_MLBA ancestry like the ones seen among gangetic plains brahmins would be anything to scoff at. If anything, i am actually surprised that they have this much even afer thousands of years.
"Sanauli 2000bce was already Vedic as per the burials"
Sorry, what was 'vedic' among sinauli burials ?
"Don't you guys find it interesting that in middle of countless Persian tribes Elamities survived as late as 300bce"
Don't we have a similar case in the indus region where brahui(categorized as a dravidian language) survives till this day albeit with heavy influence from balochi !
In the far north,we do have some language isolates like Burushaski , right ?
Rituals involved that's what the officials said. Something to do with cloth or the items inside pottery......
Don't remember what exactly + OCP culture is linked to Vedic culture in archaeology if I am not wrong. Sanauli belongs to OCP-copper hoard.
"Rituals involved that's what the officials said. Something to do with cloth or the items inside pottery......"
Would wait for a paper for confirmation rather claims by officials.
"OCP culture is linked to Vedic culture in archaeology if I am not wrong. "
I thought the connection of OCP with Vedic or Indo-Aryan was contentious !
Brahmins weren't even in the picture for major part of pre gupta history.
Post Magadh north west rulers all of them were of foreign origin;
200bce-500ce
Indo-Greeks
Indo-Parathians
Indo-Scythians
(Western & Northern Kshatrapas)
Kushanas
Huns
Give or take North West India was over run by foreigners post Alexander.
Yes that's what we all are waiting for.
With Sanauli royal burial it seems connection isn't as vague/contentious as previously held.
I am not entirely sure about the origins of Brahui.
There is no consensus among scholars. Such a language should better be identified as sprachbund. Don't know why they call it Dravidian language.
Burushaski I have heard about but don't have any opinion about it.
I saw you retweeted post on twitter:
Kanishka uses the word αριαo ωσ- in original script which is transliterated as ariao ōs-
Persians used Airya....
Vedic is Arya
Wonder want to make of it.
Brahui is an import from the south of India through trading route..
Ignore the paper that said brahui= balochi genetically therefore brahui is local to the region.. it's the worst kind of scholarship where ancestry directly correlates with language.
burusho
Sample size 25
23% South Indian
41% Bloch
12% CHG
10% NE Euro
1% SE Asian
3% Siberian
8% NE Asian
Ain't that interesting
Take that Siberian + NE Asian away and you have your average Punjabi based group.
Based on this doesn't appear to be a bronze age language. I could be wrong though. General isolation could have preserved their language but then you look at their patrilineal Haplogroups and it doesn't point towards that.
lithuanian (Balto)
Sample size 10
0% South Indian
7% Bloch
5% CHG
72% NE Euro
15% Mediterranean
Russian (Slavic)
russian
Sample size 25
1% South Indian
7% Bloch
6% CHG
64% NE Euro
7% Siberian
12% Mediterranean
Do modern Lithunaians and Russians carry some kind of IranN ancestry?
Oh! Thanks.
I once read a paper that got me confused with its wordings.
It said something like Ganj Dareh was genetically closest to CHG but Ganj Dareh didn't contribute much to the Yamnaya.
"Brahui is an import from the south of India through trading route."
What's the evidence behind this claim ? How did that trade route impact only that tribe specifically ?
asi 1
irā 2
musi 3
čār 4
panč 5
šaš 6
haft 7
haš 8
nō 9
dah 10
I am no expert but if this language was an ancient one it would have more Sanskrit influence on it instead we see later Persian influence possibly pointing to a late arrival in the region.
"Brahui has borrowed a large number of words from Arabic, Balochi, Persian, and Pashto. According to Bashir, words of Dravidian origin account for only 15% of Brahui’s lexicon, while 20% of Brahui’s lexicon comes from Balochi. For example, Brahui maan ‘bread’ and Balochi naan."
Hi vasistha,
Is it possible that we might be missing the early steppe rich samples due to them practising cremation ? Admixture with the local population would have been patchy initially(thus, existence of groups in north india with little no steppe ancestry even after migration) so isn't it possible that we may not find evidence of such a cremating population during the initial phases of their migration ?
This might also explain why steppe ancestry in swat is seen mediated through women as steppe band might have to give brides in order for safe passafe through that area initially !
"but if this language was an ancient one it would have more Sanskrit influence"
You probably meant early Indo-aryan rather than iranian influence as sanskrit was language of the elite with the speakers limited to a few people while local prakrit dialects were the languages of the masses.
Besides, the influence of sanskrit has always been established by brahmins and that region has been devoid of brahmins for at least 1300 years. That's a really lomg time.
Harappans used different kinds of burial systems like extended burials in a pit, secondary burials, urn burials (suggesting cremation) among others.
Fire and altars were of great importance to Vedic people. Older Mandalas start off with various hymns dedicated to agni.
More important than the chariots!
Yup Indo-Aryan influence.
@tim
"Is it possible that we might be missing the early steppe rich samples due to them practising cremation ?"
There is no way to falsify this hypothesis, hence it is useless. anyhow, sintashta didnt practice cremation, later variant fedorovo did.. all samples from fedorovo (shoendykol site) so far are Z2124 not Y3, so connection to india doesnt fit.
"Mallory acknowledges the difficulties of making a case for expansions from Andronovo to northern India, and that attempts to link the Indo-Aryans to such sites as the Beshkent and Vakhsh cultures "only gets the Indo-Iranian to Central Asia, but not as far as the seats of the Medes, Persians or Indo-Aryans". He has developed the Kulturkugel model that has the Indo-Iranians taking over Bactria-Margiana cultural traits but preserving their language and religion while moving into Iran and India."
See what they have to do for it all to make sense? apparently steppe folks brought language and religion but not material culture for their theory to fit the facts.
This is an interesting hymn Mandala 1
1. To the strong Rudra bring we these our songs of praise, to him the Lord of Heroes with the braided hair,
That it be well with all our cattle and our men, that in this village all be healthy and well-fed.
Don't know why it seems to me that this image perfectly portrays it
https://www.harappa.com/indus/34.html
Deity in this seal appears to have mated hair surrounded by cattle and people. Priest on his knees. In front of him there seems to be Shivling.
What do you make of it?
Braided not mated x_x
Sleep is taking over me.....
No comments on the seal.. no expertise, can only speculate
What do you speculate?
I am interested.
I asked some other person and he speculated about 7 sages or 7 singers etc
will think tomorrow
What is the source of East Asian ancestry in Bengalis?
Nepalese or Buddhist travellers from East-SE Asia?
"What is the source of East Asian ancestry in Bengalis?
Nepalese or Buddhist travellers from East-SE Asia?"
I have no idea why people think of such convoluted reasons when much simpler reasons exist. The source of east asian ancestry in bengalis come from two sources - munda/austroasiatic speakers and tibeto-burman speakers who inhabit the eastern and north-eastern regioms of indian subcontinent. I mean, we literally have hundreds of tibeto-burman speaking tribes east of 'united bengal' so its obvious that some of that ancestry would have percolated among bengalis.
Yup looks like a possibility as these groups carry up to 30% SE Asian ancestry.
I was looking at Punjabi samples and there appears to be around 1-2% Mediterranean and Siberian input. Mediterranean can be understood but where did Siberian input came from.
Most interesting are Irula
Their CHG input is at 13% but 0% related to NE-Euro.
This makes it even more interesting as 2 samples from Roopkund with R1a1 Y-Haplogroups show 100% Irula input.
Gujarati samples are kinda interesting
gujarati-a
Sample size 63
54% South Indian
42% Bloch
0% CHG
1% NE Euro
gujarati-b
44% South Indian
39% Bloch
5% CHG
7% NE Euro
Compared to their Northern neighbour
sindhi
Sample size 24
29% South Indian
46% Bloch
10% CHG
6% NE-Euro
From Wikipedia
In what has been described as "the great linguistical paradox of India", Sanskrit inscriptions first appeared much later than Prakrit inscriptions, although Prakrit is considered as a descendant of the Sanskrit language. This is because Prakrit, in its multiple variants, had been favoured since the time of the influential Edicts of Ashoka (circa 250 BCE).
Besides a few examples from the 1st century BCE, most of the early Sanskrit inscriptions date to the time of the Indo-Scythian rulers, either the Northern Satraps around Mathura for the earliest ones, or, slightly later, the closely related Western Satraps in western and central India. It is thought that they became promoters of Sanskrit as a way to show their attachment to Indian culture: according to Salomon "their motivation in promoting Sanskrit was presumably a desire to establish themselves as legitimate Indian or at least Indianized rulers and to curry the favor of the educated Brahmanical elite".
Ain't that interesting ^_^
Bengalis have some east Asian ancestry because they live closer to east Asian people.
Any idea what exactly Bloch component points to:
Ganj Dareh
IranN related with minor AASI
ANI related (IVp + Steppe)
If it's 1st and 2nd then doesn't that show no steppe input whatsoever.
Just like Afghans who show central Asian input ^_^
Rig Veda 6.61
(Oldest Mandala)
12 Seven-sistered, sprung from threefold source, the Five Tribes' prosperer, she must be
Invoked in every deed of might.
13 Marked out by majesty among the Mighty Ones, in glory swifter than the other rapid Streams,
Created vast for victory like a chariot, Sarasvatī must be extolled by every sage.
14 Guide us, Sarasvatī, to glorious treasure: refuse us not thy milk, nor spurn us from thee.
Gladly accept our friendship and obedience: let us not go from thee to distant countries.
12th is very interesting.
triṣadhasthā saptadhātuḥ pañca jātā vardhayantī |
vāje-vāje havyā bhūt ||
(Sanskrit version)
@ashish
that component tool you are using is not very good. use G25 or qpAdm.
This to me this is very very significant, and given time we need to look deeper:
Kashmiri, bangani and some pahari languages are outliers vs other North Indian languages in showing v2/SVO ordering rather than the usual SOV.
I suspect this is not some chance trait but a rather deep split in IE. Modern English has this tendency(possibly due to migration from nordic regions?) as opposed to latin(SOV)
http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/ebhr/pdf/EBHR_31_06.pdf
A remnant of this in weakened form even in Bengali;
typically also SOV due to neighboring influence. But negation always follows verb. what does this mean?
If I translate bengali "bOrbE nA" it becomes will not say, but in "nA bOlbE" the nA will be treated as a noun as in "he will say 'the word no'"
so what ever contributed to bengali had a very deep sense of verb order which was not SOV.
I have always found it strange and decided to dig. Now I see that the traits seems to correlate with kashmiri
http://linguistics.uok.edu.in/Files/f6ec3740-422d-4ac1-9f52-ddfe2cffcb28/Journal/396e6104-d094-4673-8f44-8729cb91833d.pdf
English, germanic not only has has non SOV order but also sees negation following the conjugated verb. E.G. "will not, do not" in the middle of the sentence.
greek and slavic typically are SVO it seems not SOV like latin.
SOV = subject object verb
SVO = subject verb object?
from wiki, basics about kashmiri language family - dardic
Georg Morgenstierne (1961), after a "lifetime of study," came to the view that only the "Kafiri" (Nuristani) languages formed an independent branch of the Indo-Iranian languages separate from Indo-Aryan and Iranian families, and determined that the Dardic languages were unmistakably Indo-Aryan in character.[10]
Dardic languages contain absolutely no features which cannot be derived from old [Indo-Aryan language]. They have simply retained a number of striking archasisms, which had already disappeared in most Prakrit dialects... There is not a single common feature distinguishing Dardic, as a whole, from the rest of the [Indo-Aryan] languages... Dardic is simply a convenient term to denote a bundle of aberrant [Indo-Aryan] hill-languages which, in their relative isolation, accented in many cases by the invasion of Pathan tribes, have been in varying degrees sheltered against the expand influence of [Indo-Aryan] Midland (Madhyadesha) innovations, being left free to develop on their own.[11]
Classification
According to a model proposed by Asko Parpola, the Dardic languages are directly descended from the Rigvedic dialect of Vedic Sanskrit.[12]
yes SVO is subject verb object.
That wiki article is junk, we need to look at primary evidence not high level impositions like those of Parpola.
Iranian is SOV and
farsi/pashto also has negation before verb like sanskrit, hindi etc...
So "Pathan influence" does not explain this in Dardic. The truth is that these have been ignored.
So dardic retaining archaisms of old sanskrit, is that true?
Some interesting pointers
Proto Finno-Ugric speakers were neighbour of Proto indo-Iranian but we see no borrowings or influence of PFU on PII.
PIIs were living next to BMAC speakers but again we don't see any linguistic impact which would only point to BMAC being linguistically similar
PIIs were the first wave followed by IAs but again no influence
Harappan cultures who scholars believe weren't IE continued till 1300bce but Rig Veda which was composed by 1200bce doesn't shows any pre Aryan linguistic presence.
So how are they gonna explain 1000 years of 0 linguistic impact on II speakers from PFU or BMAC or Harappa.
Despite being a kashmiri I can't be of any help here as I have given up kashmiri for hindi x_x
But here is an interesting pointer
Sanskrit - Pitr
Russian - otets
Old Church Slavonic - otĭče
Lithuanian - tėvas
Kashmiri - Mol
Don't seem related.
Wonder how this change came about.
Fire
Sanskrit - Agni
Punjabi - Aga
Kashmiri - Naar
Lithuanian - Ugnis
It's possible that the western siberian hg related ancestry which existed before Sintashta (kumsay EBa, aigyrzhal, etc) spoke finno ugric type languages.. a big genetic interwctionnhappened between them and bmac and north of bmac where FU might have picked up IIr loans from bmac.
On the other hand, bmac and shahr I sokhta main populations have between 15-30% Indus periphery ancestry.. directly From ind_pe in shahr sokhta, and through shahr sokhta into bmac.
InPe outliers in shahr sokhta and bmac additionally attest to this interaction.
This pulse of ancestry from Indus happened between 3000-2500bce into shahr sokhta and there's no evidence of additional genetic pulse into bmac till 1500bce. which matches quite well with the Aryan and iranian split time from proto IIr around 2250bce.
The fire temples at Gonur and dzharkutan also attest to the IIr nature of those sites.
@AshishKaull, You need to understand something about clustering based ADMIXTURE alogorthms like HarappaWorld.
Here, the user provides an input K(hypothetical number of ancestral populations whose mixture created these modern day populations) and then tries to cluster various populations based on admixture of these K hypothetical populations. In this case, SI(South Indian) points to the component which is maximized in South and Central indian tribals, Baloch is the compoenent which is maximized in Balochs, NE Euro is compnent maximized in NE europeabs and so on.
Keeping this in mind, if you want to interpret these components in terms of real, ancient populations then the 'Siberian' respresents a part of WSHG(West Siberian Hunter Gatherer) ancestry, other part of WSHG will be represented by NE Euro component and so on.
'Mediterranean' here would represent a part of ANF.
"Most interesting are Irula
Their CHG input is at 13% but 0% related to NE-Euro."
@AshishKaul, you are confusing HarappaWorld admixture component 'Caucasian' with a real, ancient population CHG. Anyways, those analysis showing 0% Baloch and 13% Caucasion were bunk. Someone re-analyzed irula samples again and this time, they showed 0% Caucasian, some baloch % and rest SI.
@AshishKaul, my naive understanding is that Baloch component of HW represents part of Iran_N + some ANE/WSHG ancestry.
If you want to verify whether HW'S Baloch component has some bronze age steppe related ancestry then try to find HW models of samples from sintastha/andronovo culture in anthrogenica. If those samples show some Baloch like component then indeed this Baloch like component may represent a part of bronze age steppe ancestry.
Regarding BMAC, i don't think anyone has any idea on the language BMAC spoke so how can anyone be so certain about no linguistic impact of lost BMAC language on IA ?
Second, regarding non-IA influence on early vedic language, doesn't the linguist Witzel say there is a non-IA, non-dravidian influence in early vedic ? I think he calls it the Kubah-Vipas substrate !
dont care what Witzel has to say, hes done enough fraudulent work.
as far as BMAC is concerned, it had fire worship as main form of worship, and hence Viktor sarianidi calls it Zoroastrian (my opinion is I-Ir, not Zor)
Oh thanks 🙏
Thanks 🙏
Assur was a 3rd millennium bce old Assyrian God. Gets mentioned and equated with Indra in Mandala 7 of Rig Veda.
This in all Likely hood a pre Iranian reference so it's likely a pre 1900bce-1200bce reference and not the recent one.
Rig Veda 7.6.1
PRAISE of the Asura, high imperial Ruler, the Manly One in whom the folk shall triumph-
I laud his deeds who is as strong as Indra, and lauding celebrate the Fort-destroyer.
pra samrājo asurasya praśastiṃ puṃsaḥ kṛṣṭīnāmanumādyasya |
indrasyeva pra tavasas kṛtāni vande dāruṃ vandamānovivakmi ||
What do you make of it?
@vashistha What I am saying is that Kashmiri and other related languages retain archaicisms from the IE stage, NOT sanskrit/vedic. Bangani retaining kentum is not a lone example but there are other isoglosses too.
Over time kashmiri starts becoming more like mainstream indoaryan because the latter is so dominant demographically.
Simyu
Nahu
Sambara
Gandha
Is he referring to these words?
RV 7.6 deals with praise of Agni destroying the cities of the Godless (presumably by fire), of those who do not perform sacrifices (into the sacrificial fire)
@postneo
is the word for crore - 'koti', also a kentum remnant?
For koti being a remnant of kentum.. It's easy to make such an assertion but hard to prove. The significance of Satem-Kentum split itself may be overblown.
It's better to go with patterns of wide usage (statistically significant) rather than isolated single word etymologies.
Thats the problem with comparative IE linguistics. It has a very poor sense of statistical validation and often resorts to faux rigour and circular logic.
E.g. do commonplace verbs hai/(hO rahA hai) (hindi), achE/ hoitEchE (bengali) represents archaic laryngeals lost in sanskrit? If not then can the evolution of h words for the verb "s" be documented as a more recent phenomenon.
PIE reconstruction is an ossified manually curated set of rules and exceptions with selection bias. A rule is often stated without mentioning sample size. There was overdone Importance given to vedic followed by necessary compensatory elevation of European languages setting the initial biased lense with which other unfashionable languages such as indo-aryan are viewed.
In contrast, in a search engine the choice of the next word is based dynamically on statistics not some hand curated ossified set.
Also PIE could not have been a monolithic entity but better modeled as a set of closely related dialects with some rules sets that were contradictory/valid for a subset not the whole.
The standard Hindi alphabet, as agreed by the Government of India, has 11 vowels and 35 consonants.
11×35 + 44 = 429
That's roughly the number of individual unique Indus symbols that have been discovered, 417 to be precise.
What I mean is something like this
K ka kaa ke kee ku kuu.........
T ta taa te tee tu tuu.........
N na naa ne nee nu nuu.........
Ain't that interesting ^_^
If we take way that kaa naa taa like sounds then we are left with 394 sounds.
I don't know what that guy in your tweeter feed is claiming .....
Heliodorus pillar 113bce
Line 1. This Garuda-standard of Vāsudeva, the god of gods
Line 2. was constructed here by Heliodora (Heliodoros), the Bhagavata,
Line 3. son of Dion, a man of Takhkhasila (Taxila),
Line 4. the Greek ambassador who came from the Great King
Line 5. Amtalikita (Antialkidas) to King
Line 6. Kasiputra Bhagabhadra, the Savior,
Line 7. prospering in (his) fourteenth regnal year.
Three immortal precepts (footsteps)... when practiced
lead to heaven: self-restraint, charity, consciousness
In original Prakrit
Devadevasa Vā[sude]vasa Garuḍadhvaje ayaṃ
karito i[a] Heliodoreṇa bhāga-
vatena Diyasa putreṇa Takhkhasilākena
Yonadatena agatena mahārājasa
Aṃtalikitasa upa[ṃ]tā samkāsam-raño
Kāsīput[r]asa [Bh]āgabhadrasa trātārasa
vasena [chatu]daseṃna rājena vadhamānasa
Trini amuta𑁋pādāni (i me) (su)anuthitāni
neyamti sva(gam) dama cāga apramāda
IMO Vedic religion was dead by 1500-1200bce practiced only by handful of people. Upanishads and schools related to them were on ascendancy during mahavir and Buddhas time.
SWAT valley samples 1200-800bce are low on steppe and high on IranN unlike Modern Afghans. Right?
How much East Asian component do we have among modern Indo-Iranian speaking Afghans? Do they have more steppe ancestry compared to swat samples?
Don't modern Afghans show elevated levels of AASI and Steppe compared to swat?
If post 800bce is not a good source for steppe enrichment would it make steppe enrichment accompanying AASI through a southern population group a possibility?
Post 1000bce steppe samples are high on East Asian ancestry Right?
Is it possible that the steppe rich population which was bronze age eastern European derived wasn't in steppe but deep inside India and mixed with other indians much later.
Is this what Narsimhan et al calls ghost population?
"While the Mitanni kings and other members of royalty bore names of Indo-Aryan origin, and invoked Indo-Aryan deities attested in the Rigveda, they probably used the language of the local people, which was at that time a non-Indo-European language, Hurrian."
They did not do that in India lol
Mitanni empire died by 1200bce and the language of masses Hurrian disappeared by 1000bce
Changing the linguistics of 10+ million people in South-central South and West Asia in 500 years but couldn't change the language of smaller population in near east despite ruling for 300+ years.
It would be interesting to see if Mitanni Royals were converts or people from Indus.
Scholarly dishonesty.......
You said "Even David anthony in his recent YouTube uploads has started saying Iran is PIE homeland, not PC steppe north of caucasus mountains."
Link please....
For most part of human history
1 in 4 humans was Indian
1 in 4 was a Chinese
1 in 4 was a European
1 in 4 was from ROTW
Roughly/estimated 28 million was the population in 2000bce.
7-10+ million estimated in India
Take Brazil for example with 210 million portugese speaking population.
"Finally, as for the population in 1690, when the first discoveries of gold mines took place, or 30 years after the last demographic estimation, in the face of the famine that afflicted the old world, it is no exaggeration to add to the 184,000 inhabitants in 1660, 100,000 mixed-race and foreign people, which would, at that time in our history, account for a total of 284,000-300,000 inhabitants."
For comparison in its hay days Harappan civilization with its adjoining Chalcolithic cultures was resided by 10+ million people about 25-20% of the world population between 2500-2000bce.
Various archaelogical cultures of India
Bronze age Harappa 3500-1300bce
Anarta tradition 3950–1900bce
Ahar-Banas Culture 3000–1500bce
Pandu Culture 1600–1500bce
Malwa Culture 1600–1300bce
Jorwe Culture 1400–700bce
OCP culture 2000-1500bce
PGW culture 1200-600bce
Too many people in North West India to leave no trace of language and overnight become Prakrit speaking Indo Europeans between 2000-1000bce.
I am excited about your new post 😍
I was discussing with someone sometime back on this topic and he told me that on average no more than 35000 people lived across several andronovo (PII) sites.
Many sites had less than 1000 people. Compared to millions that lived across BMAC and north west South Asia.
Andronovo population size is too small to have any linguistic impact. It's they who mixed in and adopted the culture and languages of Harappans just like the later migrants from the steppe.
Kaul, too much spam. control..
Sorry T_T
Satemization is a common process when you have a cluster of the form kj/gj. It happened in nearly all romance languages and even Ecclesiastical Latin is satemized in pronunciation.
All we need R1a without steppe ancestry as early as 3000BC that's it
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