Saturday, December 3, 2022

The true source of the steppe ancestry in modern Indians

 

Mauryan figurines

This post aims to clarify the source of the bronze age steppe ancestry in modern Indians. For this, I have chosen the following targets.

Target list and details
Modern targets and their details


I have not chosen NW Indian samples because that region possibly has had multiple genetic introgressions which could muddle the signals (I have modelled Kalash with qpAdm before in this post, and the results do not differ much from what I will show below). Such is likely not the case for east and south India where the steppe ancestry would have arrived from one or a maximum of two sources.


TOOLS AND METHODS


For each of the private samples, I extracted the SNPs common with Harvard 1240k data using Plink v1.9. Each of these samples was then merged with the Harvard v54.1 1240K dataset.

I will use the Admixtools 1 package on Linux. Relevant labels will be run through qpfstats() first with parameters 'allsnps: YES' and 'inbreed: NO', and the F4 stats output will be passed as input to qpadm(). I will record the qpadm() output - p-value for the model, the admixture weights and standard errors for each model tested for each target. Models with P-values > 0.05, all positive admixture weights and low std. errors will be accepted and marked green. Models which do not pass these criteria will fail and will be marked in red. If no models pass, then I will note the models with the highest p-values and all positive admixture weights.

I will run a rotating strategy (Harney et al, 2021) for each of the 11 targets. The following labels will be used as fixed references (will not be tested as a source).

Fixed References


Source list
List of sources to be tested


There are 4 steppe sources as alternatives. 2 SC Asian sources, 1 east Iranian source and 5 local Indian sources. Of the local sources - I will only use either Irula or Roopkund_PallanLike in a model because they are similar. It turns out that the Roopkund_PallanLike label fits North Indians better whereas Irula fits southern targets better. Both these sources have minuscule to no steppe ancestry and therefore are decent proxies for the underlying non-steppe ancestry of India. 

So, for each target, I will test combinations from these 11 sources - 4 steppe, 4 local (Irula or Roopkund_pallanLike but not both), 2 SC Asian, and 1 East Iranian. The remaining sources and the fixed references will be used in the reference list for that particular model.

It would be appropriate for me to say a few things about the RoopkundA_PallanLike label. The 2 samples under this label are the only 2 R1a found from Roopkund_A (the 850 CE skeleton cluster, B cluster is from ~1800 CE comprised of Mediterranean people) among 13 males but have ~0 steppe ancestry. None of the other 11 male samples with higher steppe ancestry are R1a. I have written about the Roopkund samples here. I have named them 'PallanLike' because on PCA they cluster with modern Pallans and some Irulas. However, they have slightly higher northern ancestry than Pallan or Irula (4-5% more Siberian ancestry) and they also make better models with northern targets. So they are likely to be northern locals rather than southern migrants to the north. A similar high AASI profile was also found from I10409, an IVC migrant at Gonur in Turkmenistan with ~50% AASI/Onge ancestry.


A few caveats before I proceed:

1. Modeling modern targets with ancient sources has issues because ancient samples have deamination damage whereas modern samples do not. This damage (C--->T and G--->A, especially at ends of the strand). Some of the ancient samples used here are not even UDG-treated. UDG treatment removes some of the deamination damage. Harney et al, 2021 show that good qpadm models might fail while modelling modern targets if the damage in the ancient DNA is high (because it will reduce affinity between the modern and ancient samples). However, this cannot make otherwise bad models pass the p-value threshold. 

2. 4 private samples have a relatively low SNP count (<150k). This is moderate but not too bad (<100k is considered very low). This has the effect of making some otherwise bad models also pass the p-value threshold. It also increases the std. errors of the admixture weight output. However, this cannot make good models fail.

3. The more the number of populations in the reference list of the qpadm model (10 fixed + 9 rotating = 19 in a 2 source model), the more it could suppress the p-value output of the model. 

4. There is a close to 100% chance that the 5 local sources do not cover the variance within the pre-steppe population of India. So, regardless of what the passing models say, with new data and more choices, the working models will keep changing. Models should not be taken too literally eg. Irula being chosen as a successful source does not literally mean that the Irula ancestors admixed with the other sources.

5. A rotating model strategy checks each source for fit in an unbiased manner. However, the list of sources chosen introduces bias. Since there is a limit to the number of sources I can test (due to very high program runtimes) there could possibly be some Labels not present in this analysis which could be the true source. I have tried to ensure that the most relevant theorized sources are included here.

#1 & #3 suppress p-value, whereas low SNP count in #2 pushes up p-value. With these factors in mind, a valid model with a p-value > 0.05 should be considered good. High p-values (>0.50) are often not seen at all while modelling modern targets with ancient samples.


Telugu Niyogi Brahmin

Niyogi Brahmin 2 source models
Niyogi Brahmin models


Let me explain the screenshot once. All feasible models have been arranged in descending order of the p-value. The models in green are the ones which have a p-value > 0.05. In this case, the models which pass are 

1) Irula + Turkmenistan_IA and 

2) Irula + Gonur_BA_1 (BMAC)

The admixture weights are 81.2% + 18.8% and 79% + 21% for each model respectively. The std errors for model 1 are 2.9% (ie Irula: 81.2 +- 2.9% and Turkmenistan_IA: 18.8% +- 2.9%)

This person has a low steppe admixture among Brahmins. This is also validated by his G25 modelling, and PCA using the G25 coords. He can also be modelled without steppe (Irula + Bmac, which may also be a proxy for a northern shifted local pre-steppe population without actual BMAC ancestry).

Niyogi G25 distance - closest is a Gujarati

The closest person by G25 distance is Gujarati, also a low steppe population.

On G25, he shows 5% steppe ancestry. His Y hg is H-M69, which is local and mtDNA H2a which is near the eastern/steppe.


Brahmin.DG from Vizag

Brahmin vizag 2 source
Model for Brahmins from Vizag 


All 2 source models fail.


Brahmin vizag 3 source
Brahmin from Vizag -  3 source models


Multiple 3 source models pass. All four steppe sources pass in some combination, although Sintashta and OyDzhaylau only pass in combination with Sarazm ancestry. In contrast, Tkm_IA and Kangju pass with other local sources as well, including Shahr-Sokhta_BA2 (IVC).

The combination of Irula + 2nd (lower AASI) local source tells us that the steppe source admixed with a population which was more northern in ancestry than Irula.

On a side note, no three-source model with RoopkundA_PallanLike in the place of Irula has p>0.05.


Tamil Brahmins


Tamil Brahmin 2 source
Tamil Brahmins - All 2 source models with Irula fail

All 2 source models fail, but Irula + Tkm_IA have the highest p-value of 0.003. Next, I test 3 source models.

Tamil brahmin pallan 2 source
Tamil brahmins - 2 sources with RoopkundA_PallanLike

However, with RoopkundA_pallanLike instead of Irula, we have a passing 2 source model

~70% RoopkundA_PallanLike + ~30% Tkm_IA.


Tamil SC


Tamil SC modeled without steppe
Tamil SC 2 source


Tamil Scheduled Caste samples can be adequately modelled with Irula and a northern local source without steppe.


Kashmiri Pandit



Pandit 2 source
Pandit 2 source models

All 2 source models fail, but Tkm_IA + RoopkundA_PallanLike has the highest p-value.


Pandit 3 source
Pandit 3 source models

The only passing model for Pandit is Tkm_IA + Sarazm + RoopkundA_PallanLike


Tyagi UP


Tyagi UP
Tyagi 2 src models

The only passing model for Tyagi_UP is Tkm_IA + RoopkundA_PallanLike (40% + 60%).


UP Brahmins (Bhojpuri)


Up Brahmin 2 src models
UP Brahmin 2 src models fail

All 2 source models fail. However, TKM_IA + R_PallanLike has the best p-value.


UP Brahmins 3 src
UP Brahmin 3 source models fail

All 3 source models fail as well. However, the Turkmenistan_IA model has the best p-value, followed by Kangju.


UP Scheduled Caste

UP SC 2 source
UP SC 2 source models fail


All 2 source models fail ( so do 3 source models). The best model is Tkm_IA/Kangju + R_PallanLike


Saryuparin_Dwivedi

Dwivedi 2 source
Dwivedi 2 source models

All 2 source models fail. The Tkm_IA model has the best p-value.


Dwivedi 3 source
Dwivedi 3 source models

Only the model with Kangju as a source passes. Turkmenistan_IA ranks second.


Rajput from East UP


East UP Rajput 2 source models
Rajput from East UP 2 source models

The only passing model is with Turkmenistan_IA.


Rajput from UP/MP


Rajput from UP/MP
UP MP Rajput 2 source models

Only the model with Tkm_IA as a source passes.


DISCUSSION

The results solve a dilemma which I have been facing since the Narasimhan et al paper from 2019. They claimed that Indians received steppe ancestry in the bronze age but not BMAC-related ancestry. Did they somehow skip mixing with BMAC ancestry which was ubiquitous on the path from Steppe to India? If unmixed steppe people were present near NW India in the bronze age, why are there no archaeological settlements with Andronovo materials and Kurgans?

It turns out that the common sense logic was true, and scepticism was warranted. From the passing models of the above 11 targets, it appears that Turkmenistan_IA from 850 BCE is the best source of steppe ancestry for modern Indians. This sample is from the Yaz II culture and can be modelled as BMAC + Steppe_MLBA in a 43/57 ratio. No east Asian ancestry is detected in this sample. (Guarino-Vignon et al, 2021)

The older samples in Turkmenistan are from the Parkhai and Sumbar LBA sites, dating to ~1400 BCE. Those do not show elevated steppe ancestry. Only one of those 3 samples, I6667, shows some steppe ancestry to the tune of 10%. Similar samples cannot be the source of steppe in Indians.

Tkm_LBA
LBA samples from Turkmenistan have little steppe ancestry and cannot be a source of the steppe for modern Indians.


Therefore it seems likely that TKM_IA-like ancestry took hold in Turkmenistan only post 1000BCE when Yaz II started. 

The amount of east Asian ancestry in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan remains low even in the Iron age. For example, the ~100 BCE samples from Rabat and Sherkharakat in Uzbekistan only have additional 5-7% east Asian ancestry over BMAC (Kumar et al, 2021). The present-day Uzbek populations show additional east Asian and Siberian ancestries over the 100 BCE samples, proving a later entry of extra east Asian ancestry (Kumar et al, 2021). Modern Indians do not prefer a steppe source heavy in East Asian ancestry (like the Śāka from Kyrgyzstan) but minor east Asian ancestry is tolerated well by qpAdm (Narasimhan et al, 2019 model Indians successfully with Kangju; and the above targets work well with Kangju if Tkm_IA is removed from competition).

The Turkmenistan_IA ancestry survives even today in the Tajik Yaghnobi population. They are modelled as deriving 88-93% of their ancestry from a Turkmenistan_IA like population, the rest being East Asian (Guarino-Vignon et al, 2021). The Yaghnobis speak an Eastern Iranian dialect (related to Sogdian) whereas the Tajiks speak a dialect of Southwestern Iranian (Persian). 

Using DATES, Guarino-Vignon et al date the east Asian admixture in Yaghnobis to 1019+-447 years ago, ie ~100CE at the earliest (95% confidence = 2x of std error = ~900, ie ~1900 yrs ago)

Given this, it is safe to conclude that the admixture of this population into Indians likely occurred between 1000 BCE and 100 CE. 

Modern Yaghnobis
Yaghnobi Men: From wiki


Evidence from Archaeology and Literature



Steppe ancestry is first seen at Swat valley around 1200 BCE (15-20%), but the ancestry probably trickled in post-1700 BCE (Narasimhan et al, 2019). However, as seen from the above models, Swat samples are not a good source of ancestry for modern Indians. Furthermore, there is no archaeological, literary or genetic evidence to suggest that steppe ancestry reached deeper into India in that period. The crude theory that 'Steppe Aryans' ransacked IVC settlements causing their downfall is not supported anymore. As per the latest research - the drying up of the Saraswati, drought and a shift in monsoonal patterns are said to be the main catalysts (Malik, 2020; Sengupta et al, 2019; Chatterjee et al, 2019). Despite the lack of evidence, Dr David Reich from Harvard in his 2019 book maintains:

But the lack of archaeological evidence does not mean that there were no major incursions from the outside. Between sixteen hundred and fifteen hundred years ago, the western Roman Empire collapsed under the pressure of the German expansions, with great political and economic blows dealt to the western Roman Empire when the Visigoths and the Vandals each sacked Rome and took political control of Roman provinces. However, there so far seems to be little archaeological evidence for destruction of Roman cities in this time, and if not for the detailed historical accounts, we might not know these pivotal events occurred.” It is possible that in the apparent depopulation of the Indus Valley, too, we might be limited by the difficulty archaeologists have in detecting sudden change. The patterns evident from archaeology may be obscuring more sudden triggering events.
This is a very flippant statement, but it does give me a peek into the worldview of these scholars. Visigoths and Vandals had no noticeable linguistic impact on the Romans, and their Germanic language is extinct today. This is in stark contrast to Reich's claim that the invisible steppe men who invaded IVC changed the whole linguistic landscape of Northern India, so much so that all native languages became extinct without leaving records. How is that even possible? On the other hand, invasions in India by Achaemenids, Śāka, Greeks, Kushans, and Turko-Mongols are well attested - none of them was able to impose their languages.

Leaving fantasy behind, let us look at some hard data.

Hemphill et al (1991) concluded a biological discontinuity between 800 BCE and 200 BCE at Harappan sites. It would seem that the steppe ancestry introgression into Indus valley sites post 800 BCE is supported by anthropometric data.

As for the question of biological continuity within the Indus Valley, two discontinuities appear to exist. The first occurs between 6000 and 4500 BC and is reflected by the strong separation in dental non-metric characters between neolithic and chalcolithic burials at Mehrgarh. The second occurs at some point after 800 BC but before 200 BC. In the intervening period, while there is dental non-metric, craniometric, and cranial non-metric evidence for a degree of internal biological continuity, statistical evaluation of cranial data reveals clear indications of interaction with the West and specifically with the Iranian Plateau.
I am inclined to accept this proposal. In the next section, I will propose some routes through which this ancestry could have come into the ancestors of modern Indians.


1. Śāka presence in Punjab in the Pre-Achaemenid Period


Petrie and Magee (2011) claim a connection between Yaz culture and the assemblages found in the Bannu basin of Pakistan between 900-600BCE. However, apart from those two scholars, I have not found confirmation of this connection. The Wikipedia article puts the Bannu ceramics as part of the Indian Northern Black Polished Ware culture.
The Bannu Archaeological Project excavations at the sites of Ter Kala Dheri and Akra between 1995 and 2001 revealed evidence for a regionally distinct cultural assemblage marked by what has been referred to as Bannu Black on Red Ware, which has been dated to the early-mid 1st millennium BC, thus making it pre-Achaemenid (c. 900-600 BC; Khan et al. 2000c: 81-100; Magee et al. 2005; Magee and Petrie 2010).
The two most characteristic ceramics are Bannu Black on Red Ware and globular spouted
vessels (labelled Assemblage 2). Neither of these ware types has been reported elsewhere in the western borderlands of the subcontinent, and the closest technological, morphological and stylistic parallels for Bannu Black on Red Ware are to be found in the early Iron Age (Yaz Depe I) cultures of south-west Central Asia (Magee et al. 2005; Magee and Petrie 2010).
I discovered something most interesting in VS Agarwala's 1953 book on Pāṇini. Pāṇini was a Gandharan Brahmin, expert philologist and Sanskrit grammarian who lived in the period between 600-400BCE. Since his era coincides with that of the Achaemenid rule, his works can shed light on the NW Indian region during his era. Panini gives interesting information regarding a place name suffix that was in use in Uslnara and VarNu (Bannu) during his time. He names various places names ending with 'kanthA' in the region of Punjab and Bannu.

'kanthA' - 'city' is a Śāka suffix whereas 'Kanda'- 'city' is a Sogdian suffix, as is informed to us by Kharoshthi inscriptions. SC Asia still abounds in 'kanthA' ending place names, as Agarwala informs us - Samar-kand, Panj-Kand, Tash-kent, etc. This is indicative of Śāka presence in Punjab long before Pāṇini's time and long before the later Indo-Śāka or Kushana rule.

The Connection made by Petrie and Magee between Bannu ware (900-600BCE) and Yaz culture is probably an answer to Agarwala's quandary. It would seem that Śāka were present in Punjab, not just in the Oxus in the pre-Achaemenid times.

It is possible that these Śāka comingled with the Hindu upper classes and mediated steppe ancestry in the ancestors of modern Indians. However, no other information about this period exists to confirm this.


2. During Achaemenid Rule


It is accepted that the Yaz III period (700-400BCE) saw the region come under the rule of the Achaemenid empire (Lhuillier et al, 2013; Basafa & Davari, 2021). From the Behistun inscription, it is known that the Achaemenid King Darius I ordered his Bactrian satrap to crush the Margiana revolt, aka 'Revolt of Frāda' in 522 BCE. 55,243 of Frāda’s followers were killed and 6,972 were captured (Encyclopædia Iranica).

Achaemenid empire under Cyrus and his successor Darius I (530BCE onwards) had parts of modern Afghanistan and Pakistan as its satrapies. This is clear in the Behistun, Persepolis and Naqsh-E-Rustam inscriptions. The satrapies were - Gandhara, Hindush and Sattagydia. These satrapies were also mentioned by Strabo and Herodotus.

Based on some material found from the Bannu basin dated between 600-300BCE, Petrie and Magee conclude that Akra (Bannu basin) might have been the Achaemenid capital of the Sattygydia satrapy.

Assemblage 1 includes examples of bowls with offset vertical rim, banded beakers, bowls with an s-shaped rim and tulip bowls, and typological comparisons with material from Iran and Afghanistan suggest a dating between 600 and 300 BC for this assemblage (Magee et al. 2005: 724-25). The presence of this material provides some archaeological confirmation for the argument, hitherto based on epigraphic and historical data, that Akra might be the capital of the Achaemenid satrapy of Thatagush

Per David Fleming, Bhir Mound at Taxila remains the best choice for the Achaemenid capital of India

However, it is noticeable that some of the early Bhir Mound pottery from Taxila, whose mid-to-late sixth century BCE date is not in dispute, bears a surprising resemblance to material from contemporaneous Kandahar and southern Iran, where an Achaemenid presence is certain. This would indicate that contacts of various sorts were maintained between the Kandahar region of southern Afghanistan (and hence to the Iranian plateau proper) and the upper Punjab by way of the Gumal Pass area. In geographical terms such a direct route between the fertile Punjab and the important nexus of trade routes meeting at Kandahar eliminated the need to negotiate the mountainous terrain between modern Ghazni, Gardez, Kabul, and the Peshawar vale.It also passed through solidly Achaemenid territory in Sattagydia and reiterates the importance to the empire of Sattagydia as a way station on the route to India.

Until and unless another contender is found, Taxila's Bhir Mound remains the most plausible candidate for the capital of Achaemenid India.

Indian soldiers were part of the Achaemenid army as well, and the 331 BCE battle between Alexander and Darius III is said to have included soldiers from India as well as Bactria and Sogdiana. This suggests that at least some Indian territories were under the rule of Achaemenids between 530 and 330 BCE.

What genetic changes occurred during this rule cannot be estimated, but some mixing between the Hindu elites and the Achaemenid elites is possible. Śāka were also part of the armies and administrators commanded by the Achaemenids.

Another route through which some foreign genetic material could have entered Indians is by incorporating non-Aryans into the Aryan fold. Agarwala cites Pāṇini's work which talks about Vrātyas [non-Aryans or Aryans who have lost the Aryan way] and the Vrātya-stoma rituals to bring them back to the Aryan fold. The simplified rituals are meant for 4 kinds of people - the young, the elderly, ones who are violent, and cultural leaders in the Vrātya society.  

Agarwala writes "It is possible that the converted Vrātya who had been admitted to the Brahmana or Kshatriya fold were spoken of as ब्राह्मण-कृताः and क्षत्रिय-कृताः ." 

Whether Śāka were converted into the Aryan fold through such rituals remains a matter of debate, it is not very clear who exactly were the subjects of this ritual.


3. Greek and Mauryan period

After Alexander won the 331 BCE war with the Achaemenids, he ventured east into the Indus river territory. Strabo notes that one of Alexander's companions (Aristobulus) saw Taxila's dead being fed to vultures - this indicates the presence of Zoroastrianism at Taxila (Vivero, 2020)

His achievements in the east (Battle vs Porus?) lasted only a few decades and by 317BCE the Greek satraps left behind were driven out by the Mauryan empire of Chandragupta Maurya. The 305 BCE battle by Seleucus to take back control resulted in a Greek defeat and a peace treaty was signed. As part of this diplomacy, Seleceus' daughter (?) married Chandragupta Maurya. Perhaps this also signifies the lack of aversion of Indian elites marrying foreigners, or perhaps this was just due to political expediency. The treaty resulted in mutually beneficial diplomatic relations between the Greeks and Mauryas. Perso-Hellenistic art inspired some of the Magadhan architecture (presumably along with the import of Iranian craftsmen). Terracotta figures excavated from Mauryan era Mathura and Sarnath also reveal the presence of foreigners (if not just depictions of foreigners).

Mauryan foreigners

a. Persian Nobleman Clad in Coat Dupatta Trouser and Turban - Circa 2nd Century BCE. From wiki
b. Foreigner with Śāka conical hat at Sarnath. From wiki

Ashoka's reign saw the Mauryan empire expand into the south of India. Perhaps it was during this rule that the steppe ancestry from the NW was mediated into the other parts of India?

After the death of Ashoka, the Maurya empire fell around 180 BCE, and the NW part of India was taken hold of by Graeco-Bactrians under Śāka administrators. 


4. Indo-Greek and Indo-Śāka rule

The Greek-born but Buddhist convert Milinda ruled between 160-130 BCE and had his capital at Sakala (Sialkot in Punjab). He campaigned as far as Mathura and Pataliputra against the Shungas (successors of Mauryas in Magadha). It is expected that there would be Śāka soldiers in the Indo-Greek army.

Post 100 BCE, a Śāka administrator of the Indo-Greeks named Maues became the king after marrying the widow - Greek Queen Machene. From the numismatic evidence, we see that Maues reversed the Hellenic ban of representing Hindu icons on the Indo-Greek coinage by the predecessors - presumably to appease his Hindu citizens and elites. The Indo-Śāka ruled with the help of Satraps and Maha-Satraps.

Rudradaman I, the Indo-Śāka king who ruled as a Maha-Kshatrapa from 150 CE waged various wars against the Andhra Satavahana dynasty but ended up giving his daughter's hand in marriage to the Brahmin Andhra king Vashishtiputra Satakarni (from Junagadh inscription).

The period saw the rise of the Kushana empire under Kanishka I. Kushanas had control over Northern India till around 370 CE when they were pushed out by the Gupta kings. Samudragupta's Prayagraj Pillar mentions that the last of the Kushanas offered their daughters' hand in marriage in an attempt to keep control over their territories.


5. Maga Brahmins

We have one confirmed instance of foreign priests (Iranian Mages in particular) being slowly accepted into the Hindu Brahmin fold. Maga Brahmins also known as Śākadvipiya Brahmins or Bhojaka Brahmins are thought to have instituted Solar deity worship (as vigraha/mUrti). They are mentioned in Buddhist sources (mostly negatively due to their foreign customs, especially relating to incestuous marriages) as well as some Purāṇas (Bronkhorst 2015). With the centuries of rule by the Achaemenids, Indo-Śāka and Graeco Bactrians; these foreign priests may have gained full Brahmin status in a society wherein Mlecchas (foreigners) were looked down upon.

Johannes Bronkhorst writes this in his 2015 book:

No longer do we need to find out why Indian Brahmins, contrary to their habits, were willing to accept in their midst immigrants from a neighbouring country in the northwest. The fact is that they did not do so, or if they did, not knowingly. They did not accept as Brahmins immigrants from a neighbouring country in the northwest, but immigrants from a remote continent, not reachable by ordinary travel. And these immigrants had always been Brahmins, for unlike the countries in the northwest, society in the remote continent of Śākadvīpa was organized according to Brahmanical principles.  But why should immigrants from Śākadvīpa be granted privileges that were not granted to visitors from neighbouring countries? The answer is simple and straightforward: Because quite independently of the arrival of the Magas, and presumably already before this event, there was a Brahmanical tradition that maintained that the remote continent of Śākadvīpa was inhabited by people who followed the Brahmanical order of society. This is clear from a passage in the Bhīṣmaparvan of the Mahābhārata, which says a great deal about Śākadvīpa and its inhabitants, but nothing whatsoever about migrating Magas.
Our reflections appear to justify the following picture. For some reason so far unknown there was a belief in Brahmanical circles according to which there was a remote continent called Śākadvīpa whose population consisted of Brahmins, Kṣatriyas, Vaiśyas and Śūdras. Independently of this tradition, and presumably at some later date, sun-priests from Persia settled in India. In order to be recognized as Brahmins in their new surroundings, they or their descendents made the claim that they were the Magas of Śākadvīpa, who had been called hither.


Bronkhorst believes that the Magi came to India during the Indo-Śāka or Kushana rule.

However, KC Srivastava (1968) believes that the Magi may have entered Indian society along with the Achaemenid invasion of 500 BCE.

It is not far-fetched to assume that a lot of the steppe ancestry in Brahmins came from intermarriage with the Maga Brahmins before caste endogamy set in.



Added on 7-Dec-2022

There is a curious passage in the Mahābhārata 6.12.33–37 which goes thus (translated by Bronkhorst 2015)

In that [continent] there are four meritorious countries, esteemed by the people: Maga, Maśaka, Mānasa and Mandaga. Maga is mainly inhabited by Brahmins who love their tasks. In Maśaka there are virtuous Kṣatriyas who are generous in accordance with the wishes of all. In Mānasa the Vaiśyas survive by their tasks; they are brave, devoted to the wishes of all, bent on dharma and artha. The Śūdras in Mandaga, for their part, are men constantly pious. There is neither king nor punishment, whether big or small. The [people] preserve dharma with regard to each other by [sticking to] their own dharma. This much can be said about that continent. This much you should hear about Śākadvīpa, full of splendor.
Later Greek sources mention a tribe called Massagétai, who probably lived around the Oxus region, somewhere to the east of the Caspian Sea (Schmitt 2018). Schmitt (2018) writes:

The name Massagétai mostly and most plausibly is explained as the plural form (containing the suffix East Ir. *-tā, reflected in Gk. -tai) of *Masi̯a-ka-, which can be understood as a regular derivation with Ir. *-ka- from *masi̯a- “fish”.
Masi̯a-ka- sounds like the same Maśaka from the Mahābhārata verse above.

Strabo also distinguishes four groups of Massagétai - living on the islands, the marshes, the mountains, and the plains (Schmitt 2018), similar to 'four meritorious countries' in MBh. Herodotus notes that they worship only the Sun God and sacrifice horses to him (Schmitt 2018)

Additional evidence comes from the Gadha(Jasdan) inscription of 200 CE during the Indo-Śāka rule of the Western Kshatrapas. 

 
Jasdan inscription
Jasdan Inscription - Translation From Epigraphia Indica Vol 16 by FW Thomas

'Son of Pratā-Śāka, of the Mānasa gotra' is mentioned here. Mānasa is also the same country as mentioned in the MBh verse above and is associated with a Śāka (Pratā-Śāka). This is the region where the Vaishyas (trader varNa) of Śākadvīpa are supposed to reside.

The Massagétai are from the right location (Turkmenistan region), have the right name, speak the right language and worship the right God to be associated with the people that the Maga Brahmins came from. 




False claims made by Narasimhan et al 2019 


This article is not complete without me reminding everyone how this paper has set the Indian population genetics research field back by a decade. Apart from getting very generic ancestry proportions of Indians right, it gets almost everything else wrong.


1. "People of the BMAC were not a major source of ancestry for South Asians

This can now be said to be untrue. Turkmenistan_IA is derived from BMAC and Steppe_MLBA populations, and the analysis above showed that it is the best steppe source in Indians. So either both are major sources of ancestry in South Asians, or none are.


2. "Steppe ancestry in modern South Asians is primarily from males and disproportionately high in Brahmin and Bhumihar groups.

I have rebutted both of these claims in previous posts. Simply put, R1a-L657 (which makes up 70% of modern Indian R1a) is not from the steppe and is local to the Indian subcontinent. It is found in exactly 0 bronze age samples from the steppe and is absent in any meaningful way from modern steppe populations. The paper avoids this nuance and concludes wrongly after omitting this relevant data. The rebuttal can be read here.

Steppe ancestry is not disproportionately high in Brahmin groups. UP Rajput groups have similar ancestry as Brahmins, and the highest steppe groups in India are from NW India (Jats). This is covered here.


3. "By the end of the second millennium BCE, these people were joined by numerous outlier individuals with East Asian–related admixture that became ubiquitous in the region by the Iron Age. This East Asian–related admixture is also seen in later groups with known cultural impacts on South Asia, including Huns, Kushans, and Śāka, and is hardly present in the two primary ancestral populations of South Asia, suggesting that the Steppe ancestry widespread in South Asia derived from pre–Iron Age Central Asians."

The authors of the paper wanted to sell us the idea that steppe ancestry entered Indians before the late bronze age (roughly 1300 BCE) because of the presence of 'ubiquitous east Asian ancestry' in steppe regions post-LBA. This timing best fits their idea of the 'Aryan Invasion'.

This was already proven false by the data of their own paper. There was no east Asian ancestry in the 1100 BCE Kashkarchi samples from Uzbekistan. And there is no east Asian ancestry in the 850 BCE Turkmenistan_IA sample. What's more, Kangju (from 200 CE, which has minor east Asian ancestry) was a good fit as a source in their own models. East Asian ancestry is clearly not ubiquitous in the regions to the west and south of Kyrgyzstan in the iron age either (Kumar et al 2021; Guarino-Vignon et al, 2021).

From Narasimhan et al supplement pg 287 (emphasis mine)

We were unable to reject a single Iron Age population, Kazakhstan_Kangju.SG as a source, though their time period , ~200-300 CE, is much too late for them to be a viable source based on the fact that Late Bronze-Iron Age populations from South Asia from almost a millennia earlier already have substantial amounts of Steppe ancestry, and the fact that our admixture timing estimates on the modern individuals provide dates for the admixture of Steppe pastoralist-related and Iranian farmer-related ancestry in South Asia in the 2nd millennium BCE.


The presence of steppe ancestry in Swat is not proof that the ancestry spread further into India in the same burst. Swat iron age populations do not form a good source for Indians.

Their own dates of admixture in modern Indians do not show 2nd millennium BCE mixing. The error bars are wide and also support a post-1000BCE mixing date for most groups. (Graphed from Narasimhan et al 2019 supplement excel Table S5)

Error Bars represent a 95% confidence level around the Admixture date


4. In Shinde et al 2019, coauthored with Harvard geneticists, they conclude "First farmers of the Fertile Crescent contributed little to no ancestry to later South Asians"

This point specifically seems to have been emphasized to deny a western origin of the Indo-European languages in India, so that only a central Asia route via the steppe remains plausible. 

This is a false claim. Not only do the Indus Periphery samples need Anatolian Farmer or Levant PPN-related ancestry (Maier et al, 2022; my previous work), but so do the South Indian tribals like Irula and steppe-free samples such as RoopkundA_PallanLike.



CONCLUSION


All the available evidence tells us that the steppe ancestry in modern Indians is from an iron age South Central Asian source like Turkmenistan_IA. This also agrees with the archaeological and literary evidence. Since the probable source was already Iranian by language, it cannot explain the introduction of Indo-Aryan languages into the Indian subcontinent. Furthermore, a post-1000 BCE date for the entry of Indo-Aryans into North India is not supported by the Rig Veda and neither by common sense.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest contact between the Eastern Iranian Śāka and NW India, starting from 900 BCE till 350 CE. This contact seems to have been the most likely source of steppe ancestry in modern Indians.


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REFERENCES

(2022). Maga Brahmins. vriitrahan. https://vriitrahan.wordpress.com/2021/07/28/maga-brahmins/

Agrawala, V. S. "India as Known to Pāṇini.[A Study of the Cultural Material in the Ashţādhyāyī] India as Known to Panini.[A Study of the Cultural Material in the Ashtadhyayi]." Journal of the American Oriental Society 84.4 (1964).

Albaladejo Vivero, Manuel. (2020). 'Aristobulus of Cassandreia: An Engineer at the Court of Alexander the Great', in E. Myrdal (ed.), South Asian Archaeology and Art 2014 Papers Presented at the Twenty-Second International Conference of the European Association for South Asian Archaeology and Art held at the Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities/National Museums of World Culture, Stockholm, Sweden, 30th of June to 4th of July 2014, New Delhi 2020. Pp: 99-114. ISBN: 978-93-87496-36-1.. 

Basafa, Hassan, and Mohhamadsadegh Davari. "Evaluation of components and distribution area of​​ Yaz-I-III culture in northeastern Iran with emphasis on Khorasan cultural area." Journal of Iran's Pre-Islamic Archaeological Essays 5.2 (2021): 45-62.

Bronkhorst, Johannes. “How the Brahmins Won,” 2016. doi:10.1163/9789004315518.

Chatterjee, Anirban, et al. "On the existence of a perennial river in the Harappan heartland." Scientific reports 9.1 (2019): 1-7.

FLEMING, DAVID. “Where Was Achaemenid India?” Bulletin of the Asia Institute, vol. 7, 1993, pp. 67–72. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/24048427. Accessed 3 Dec. 2022.

Éadaoin Harney, Nick Patterson, David Reich, John Wakeley, Assessing the performance of qpAdm: a statistical tool for studying population admixture, Genetics, Volume 217, Issue 4, April 2021, iyaa045, https://doi.org/10.1093/genetics/iyaa045

Guarino-Vignon, P., Marchi, N., Bendezu-Sarmiento, J. et al. Genetic continuity of Indo-Iranian speakers since the Iron Age in southern Central Asia. Sci Rep 12, 733 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-04144-4

Hemphill, Brian E. "Biological adaptations and affinities of Bronze Age Harappans." Harappa Excavations 1986-1990: A Multidisciplinary Approach to Third Millennium Urbanism (Monographs in World Archaeology No. 3) (1991): 137-182.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_conquest_of_the_Indus_Valley. Accessed 3-Dec-2022

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians. Accessed 3-Dec-2022

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_I. Accessed 3 Dec 2022

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid%E2%80%93Mauryan_war. Accessed 3 Dec 2022

Lhuillier, Johanna, et al. "The Middle Iron Age in Ulug-depe: A preliminary typo-chronological and technological study of the Yaz II ceramic complex." (2013).

Magee, Peter, et al. "The Achaemenid empire in South Asia and recent excavations in Akra in northwest Pakistan." American journal of archaeology 109.4 (2005): 711-741.

Malik N. Uncovering transitions in paleoclimate time series and the climate-driven demise of an ancient civilization. Chaos. 2020;30(8):083108. doi:10.1063/5.0012059

Metspalu M, Romero IG, Yunusbayev B, et al. Shared and unique components of human population structure and genome-wide signals of positive selection in South Asia [published correction appears in 
Am J Hum Genet. 2012 Feb 10;90(2):378-9]. Am J Hum Genet. 2011;89(6):731-744. doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2011.11.010

Narasimhan VM, Patterson N, Moorjani P, et al. The formation of human populations in South and Central Asia. Science. 2019;365(6457):eaat7487. doi:10.1126/science.aat7487

Petrie, Cameron A. and Peter Magee. “The Achaemenid Expansion to the Indus and Alexander’s Invasion of North-West South Asia.” (2012).

Reich, David. Who we are and how we got here: Ancient DNA and the new science of the human past. Oxford University Press, 2018.

Robert Maier, Pavel Flegontov, Olga Flegontova, Piya Changmai, David Reich. "On the limits of fitting complex models of population history to genetic data" bioRxiv 2022.05.08.491072; doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.05.08.491072

Rüdiger Schmitt, “MASSAGETAE,” Encyclopædia Iranica, online edition, 2018, available at http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/massagetae (accessed on 7 Dec 2022).

Sengupta, Torsa, et al. "Did the Harappan settlement of Dholavira (India) collapse during the onset of Meghalayan stage drought?." Journal of Quaternary Science 35.3 (2020): 382-395.

Shinde, V., Narasimhan, V. M., Rohland, N., Mallick, S., Mah, M., Lipson, M., ... & Reich, D. (2019). An ancient Harappan genome lacks ancestry from steppe pastoralists or Iranian farmers. Cell, 179(3), 729-735.

Srivastava, V. C. “ANTIQUITY OF MAGAS IN ANCIENT INDIA.” Proceedings of the Indian History Congress, vol. 30, 1968, pp. 86–94. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/44141456. Accessed 3 Dec. 2022.

Vikas Kumar, E Andrew Bennett, Dongyue Zhao, et al. Genetic Continuity of Bronze Age Ancestry with Increased Steppe-Related Ancestry in Late Iron Age Uzbekistan, Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 38, Issue 11, November 2021, Pages 4908–4917, https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msab216

Widemann, François. “Maues King of Taxila: An Indo-Greek Kingdom with a Saka King.” East and West, vol. 53, no. 1/4, 2003, pp. 95–125. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/29757574. Accessed 3 Dec. 2022.

84 comments:

  1. "Visigoths and Vandals had no noticeable linguistic impact on the Romans, and their Germanic language is extinct today. "

    they also had almost no genetic impact. would have been obv for the vandals since they (and the alans) are so genetically distinct from the local population.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. North Italians especially those from lombardy have 10-20% Germanic Ancestry.
      Same with french and many hungarians but they all still speak a non Germanic language.

      Greeks from norther part of greece, especially from greek Macedonia have 20-30% slavic Ancestry but still speak greek,not slavic.

      Germans from east Germany have 20% slavic Ancestry too but they still speak Germanic,and not slavic.

      Delete
    2. I am not sure why you guys are obsessed with making sintashta as proto-indo-iranian.
      Majority of Indian r1a is not from sintashta anyways.

      Only western Pakistanis and pashtuns have sintashta r1a.

      Delete
    3. Also one last thing,i forgot to mention the basques and etrsucans who speak/spoke a non indo european langauge despite having 30-40% indo european Ancestry and r1b bell beaker ydna

      Delete
  2. @razib
    "they also had almost no genetic impact. would have been obv for the vandals since they (and the alans) are so genetically distinct from the local population"

    True. Reich used a random minor event from prehistory which has no bearing on the Indo Aryan debate at all. Point was that he still favours an invasion scenario, whereas most others have been forced to move away from such a scenario.

    ReplyDelete
  3. The second guy from the left looks like Niraj Rai :)

    https://a-genetics.blogspot.com/2022/12/steppe-source-in-indians.html

    About Reich

    "It is diffcult to make someone understand things especially when their salary depends on not understanding it.

    Source: Unknown.

    Mayuresh

    ReplyDelete
  4. Is it true that the Gujarati Patels have alower amount of Anatolian Hunter gatherer ancestry as compared to other castes in Gujara

    ReplyDelete
  5. @Freakk The Lombard language has significant Germanic influences.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. But Greeks of Macedonia don't.
      The point is even after such 20-30% Ancestry,all they could do was influence the language,not replace it.
      Then why are AIT losers and liars
      hellbent on making it appear that the so called 20% Ancestry not just influence,but replaced all langauges in North india and iran?

      Delete
    2. Many Hindi words are Dravidian rooted! Sanskrit is not the root of all things North Indian!

      Delete
  6. Great post! Archeologists generally consider Yaz to be the source of Mede and Persian expansion, specifically. So the Persian and Mede people were already widely extant at a fairly early date, long before the Persian Empire. Here Vidale argues Iranian plateau was already Aryanised by the early bronze age https://www.academia.edu/39589650/Protohistory_of_the_vara._Exploring_the_Proto-Indo-Iranian_Background_of_an_Early_Mytheme_of_the_Iranian_Plateau

    ReplyDelete
  7. Shahr-e Sukhteh samples would be interesting to look at. Are there any others from Halil Rud/Helmand cultures? These would have to the land of Aratta after all.

    ReplyDelete
  8. "Is it true that the Gujarati Patels have alower amount of Anatolian Hunter gatherer ancestry as compared to other castes in Gujara"

    This seems true for balochis and Makrani, nothing in gujarati stands out like that but I haven't looked deeply.

    ReplyDelete
  9. We have Shahr-Sukteh samples (3000-2000bce). The main population was like bmac but with less anatolian ancestry, and 15% IVC ancestry. The outliers were migrants from IVC.

    ReplyDelete
  10. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  11. "Can you model Haryana Jatts/Rors with same rotating qpAdm model, i would like to see how much steppe ancestry they have."

    I will, but it will take time. Don't want to work on these models for a week at least.

    ReplyDelete
  12. @Vas

    Kurd left a great reply on Nezih's post agreeing with our earlier take that TKM_IA are not the source of Western Iranians but Nezih suddenly went quite 🤔

    Also, can you try modeling Taldysay and Kyzlbulak? For the southern ancestry Parkhai over Gonur is preferable in Vahaduo.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You mentioned Dani's book against sintashta in another comment. Is it the Pakistani guy A.H Dani?
      What's the name of the book?

      Delete
    2. @vara could u tell the name of the book by A.H Dani on indo Iranian you were talking about?

      Tried searching it but couldn't find it

      Delete
  13. @Vara

    "Also, can you try modeling Taldysay and Kyzlbulak? For the southern ancestry Parkhai over Gonur is preferable in Vahaduo."

    You mean model Taldysay and Kyzlbulak targets with Parkhai/Gonur as source?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Rotating models for Taldysay and Kyzlbulak as targets. I'm interested in the origin of the steppe Iranians.

      Delete
  14. @vara

    Yeah, nice comment by Dilawer. He confirms absence of Sintashta related ancestry in West Iran at the time of Iranization of the region between 1500-1000bce. He puts the introduction of R1a in the region around 0BCE/CE.

    Basically supports the idea that Indo-Iranians have no relation to Sintashta.


    “ Post Iron Age Introduction of Y-DNA R1a R-Z94 and East Asian Ancestry into Kurdistan, North Iran, and Turkey with the Parthians and Scythians” at www.EurasianDNA.com and point out:

    1- R1a-Z94 became part of demography of Kurds and other ethnic groups in western Iran more recently than 2500 years ago based on the lack thereof in the hundreds of samples published in the “Southern Arc” study.

    2- We corroborate Parthians, Scythians and Turkics being the vector for R1a-Z94 introduction by showing that R1a-Z94 rich populations in West Asia are shifted to the exclusion of Armenians and SW Iranians on the Siberian, E.Asian and C Asian Iranian axis using 20 or so pright references in qpWave and qpAdm. We use both contemporary and higher quality ancients to show this.

    @Nezih

    Your model using Sintashta can be interpreted as “Sintashta like non R1a” especially in light of the lower p-values and lack of R1a in Hasanlu’s time. It’s clear that pure Sintashtans didn’t exist anywhere especially near W Asia when R1a was introduced to Kurdistan about 2000 years ago. That vector must have been Parthian, Scythian and Turkic"

    ReplyDelete
  15. "Rotating models for Taldysay and Kyzlbulak as targets. I'm interested in the origin of the steppe Iranians."

    Ok, will do it soon as and when time permits.

    ReplyDelete
  16. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Mjglzfxswi_vtNzeZIguGUEipdmknLzCgJ3Xpp8wJ-c/edit?usp=sharing

    Here are the results for Taldysay and Kyzlbulak. 2 different samples from each site.

    Gonur, Parkhai_C, Sarazm_C, Geoksyur all work as sources for 1 sample from each site. Additional Dali_EBA/Aigyrzhal_BA/Kumsay_EBA is also present at each site. 5% Shamanka (east asian) is also needed for one of the samples.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks.

      It seems to be that there was a 1500 BCE movements from Dehistan to the steppes. Recently, evidence of Turanian pottery has been suggested to be emulated.

      I think this movement brought Iranian languages to the steppes.

      Delete
  17. Added this, which I found interesting.

    Added on 7-Dec-2022

    There is a curious passage in the Mahābhārata 6.12.33–37 which goes thus (translated by Bronkhorst 2015)

    "In that [continent] there are four meritorious countries, esteemed by the people: Maga, Maśaka, Mānasa and Mandaga. Maga is mainly inhabited by Brahmins who love their tasks. In Maśaka there are virtuous Kṣatriyas who are generous in accordance with the wishes of all. In Mānasa the Vaiśyas survive by their tasks; they are brave, devoted to the wishes of all, bent on dharma and artha. The Śūdras in Mandaga, for their part, are men constantly pious. There is neither king nor punishment, whether big or small. The [people] preserve dharma with regard to each other by [sticking to] their own dharma. This much can be said about that continent. This much you should hear about Śākadvīpa, full of splendor."

    Later Greek sources mention a tribe called Massagétai, who probably lived around the Oxus region, somewhere to the east of the Caspian Sea (Schmitt 2018). Schmitt (2018) writes:

    "The name Massagétai mostly and most plausibly is explained as the plural form (containing the suffix East Ir. *-tā, reflected in Gk. -tai) of *Masi̯a-ka-, which can be understood as a regular derivation with Ir. *-ka- from *masi̯a- “fish”."

    Masi̯a-ka- sounds like the same Maśaka from the Mahābhārata verse above.

    Furthermore, Strabo 11.8.6 also distinguishes four groups of Massagétai - living on the islands, the marshes, the mountains, and the plains (Schmitt 2018), similar to 'four meritorious countries' in MBh.
    Herodotus notes that they worship only the Sun God and sacrifice him horses (Schmitt 2018)

    The Massagétai are from the right location (Turkmenistan region), have the right name, speak the right language and worship the right God to be associated with the people that the Maga Brahmins came from.

    ReplyDelete
  18. @vAsiSTha Hey, bit offtopic but I saw you mentioning Finkelberg's take on Minoan being an IE language. There are multiple studies on Minoan being IE, not just one. These are the ones I have found (I could be missing more):
    Davis 1967
    Finkelberg 1990
    Finkelberg 1991
    Finkelberg 2000
    Brown 1992
    Brown 1993
    Woudhuizen 2004
    Kazansky 2012
    Mainly Luwian or Lycian are suggested to be its relative although Hittite has also been mentioned.
    Skourtanioti et al 2022 found that Minoans are 50% Anatolia ChL (the sample is from an IE-speaking area), that's where their elevated CHG/Iran comes from. Same goes for Cycladics and Helladics since these three populations were homogeneous (Clemente et al 2021, confirmed by Lazaridis et al 2022).
    Other parallels with the Near East are bull worship. So a connection is entirely possible. Further proof for this would be Anatolian substratum in Greek, which exists south of Mount Pindos, but not to the north of it (Georgiev, 1960). So in south Greece there was presence of Anatolian languages.
    Speaking of Greek, things are complicated with the family it belongs to, Graeco-Phrygo-Armeno-Albanian or "Balkanic" (Olander 2022, the book that came out, you've seen it). There's no clear timeline for when it split from the Graeco-Phrygian parent language. Considering Mycenaeans have about twice as much Levantine as Minoans and same excess CHG/Iran (instead of lower) seen in Lazaridis et al 2022, there was a clear Near Eastern influence in Mycenaeans, also found in Clemente et al 2021 supplements. Not to mention the complete absence of steppe yDNA (mtDNA too I believe) but the pretty much abundant Near East-related yDNA. The steppe source was always a Yamnaya-related one, not CWC (Steppe_MLBA or Europe_LNBA), and this is confirmed by Lazaridis et al 2022 as well who also finds that the Yamnaya came from a ~100% Yamnaya population and not intermediate proxies. So all the steppe-harboring individuals in Greece, from as early as 2400BCE (from the Genetic History of Anatolia during Holocene thesis), are at most 40% steppe and the two Logkas samples are from CWC too, not Yamnaya. Log04 is from a CWC source, Log02 is Log04 + ~50% Minoan-like (Clemente et al 2021 supplements). This disqualifies them from being proto-Greek speakers, plus proto-Greek probably had not even split at that time. For now it seems more likely that it arrived in Greece through Anatolia (perhaps Graeco-Phrygian arrived, splitting into Greek eventually, meanwhile Phrygian had split in Anatolia) rather than Graeco-Phrygian splitting in modern Thrace and one going to Greece and the other in Anatolia. Autosomal DNA and yDNA both agree for now. Actually religion agrees as well, with multiple gods having Near Eastern affinities, eg Ares, Hera, Apollo, Artemis, Asclepios, Athena, Atlas, Dionysus, Hephaestus, Poseidon. Even Zeus himself is Near Eastern despite the name, there's no storm/thunder god who is the chieftain of all others in clearly IE-heavy religions such as in the Nordic Bronze Age. Not even Iron Age NW european gods (Thor and his equivalents) existed in IE-heavy religions. So it's DNA, lineages, and religion in the most dominant force in Greece when Greece was Greek-speaking agreeing, with no evidence against it. So you're pretty right in not being convinced in an entry of proto-Greek (or Graeco-Phrygian) in Greece directly through the steppe.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @orpheus what's the suppoting evidence that proto greek came from the anatolain route?
      I see most people claiming the Balkan route

      Delete
    2. @Freakk They're in the comment you're replying to and in my other comments in this thread.

      Balkan route is claimed for convenience and due to the Kurgan hypothesis. However Mycenaeans have far stronger cultural and genetic ties to Anatolia than to the Balkans.
      The Balkan route is still possible though. Proto-Greek, or Graeco-Phrygian could have arrived in the Early Bronze Age, before Mycenaeans. Mycenaean Greek isn't classified as proto-Greek but rather a dialect in Olander 2022.

      In general, there are more evidence for an eastern route than a balkan route. But nothing conclusive at the moment.

      Delete
  19. @Orpheus
    I also support this version.
    In Greek, the word "elk" is derived from IE *ELh, but in Anatolian it means "deer" (in Indo-Iranian languages deer too). Therefore, the Proto-Greek language (unlike Anatolian) was formed in Europe. Then the Anatolian substrate entered the Proto-Greek, probably in the region of Southern Greece. Probably the birthplace of the Greek language was to the north, but not as far north as the Steppes, but, for example, the North of the Balkans or even the Apennine Peninsula. Then the Mycenaeans are just a mixture of Anatolians (Minoans) and early Greeks. The early Greeks may well have had more steppe ancestors than the Mycenaeans (10%), since steppe genetics appeared in the Balkans 5000 years ago, but probably not a little more than the Mycenaeans. This conscruction solves the problem of Mycenaean/Minoan genetics and the steppe component. Therefore, I am skeptical about the search for the steppe Hittites, since it is likely that even in southern Greece, before the Mycenaeans, the steppe was equal to zero.

    ReplyDelete
  20. @Past
    Do you mean ελάφι? Ελάφι means deer, from έλαφος with the same meaning. Elk (moose) is τάρανδος. CWC-derived languages (eg German, French) call moose "elk" or a similar word. There are also no elks in Greece, so you'd have to reconstruct the word in proto-Balkanic. But it still wouldn't make sense since έλαφος means deer (not elk/moose). In any case I wouldn't base anything on linguistics alone. As for early Greek speakers, if they had more steppe than Mycenaeans, then they did not contribute any DNA in Mycenaeans at all because of the restrictions that have been found (~100% Yamnaya source required, not from CWC). I find that highly implausible, and it requires some magic to happen where people unrelated with them magically adopt their language and abandon theirs for basically zero reason. Also doesn't explain how their language was adopted but not their religion, haplogroups etc. from the clearly superior and stronger cultures in Grece at the time.

    "it is likely that even in southern Greece, before the Mycenaeans, the steppe was equal to zero."
    Nah there have been found some samples with 20-30%+ steppe in north Peloponnese I reckon, and some others throughout Greece. But they are too old (EBA down to 2400BCE so far), their lineages are basically dead ends or J or G, aren't high status (they look more like poor immigrants or even slaves), and their steppe ancestry is from CWC. You can see it in an upcoming study about such samples, their ancestry is "central-eastern european" which points at CWC. On top of all the previous restrictions, CWC has nothing to do with Greek, Phrygian, Armenian etc. So far no ~100% Yamnaya samples have been found in Greece let alone south Greece. The very few we got are outside of northern Greece like the one in Bulgaria. And even for the mainland Mycenaeans, in Lazaridis et al 2022 they still require the same ~100% Yamnaya source at a 1:10 ratio with Minoan-like as the main source (although there's a third source as I mentioned). Still with none of their lineages surviving/being relevant.
    Add the issue of language splits in all of that and it gets even more complicated.
    Griffin Warrior is a potentially good proxy for proto-Greeks, in my opinion, even before the Yamnaya component. Shows the eastern shift, very high status. But that's a guess based on the data available.

    ReplyDelete
  21. It seems to me there was some old word like "elkus" in Greek.
    I think Proto-Greek originated in Europe.
    All Europeans have a steppe admixture, but it seems chaotic in light of the divergence of languages.

    ReplyDelete
  22. @Past Probably not. Only words that are similar are έλκος (elkos, ulcer. Also means wound) and έλκω/ελκέω (elko/elkeo, pull. Ελκύω elkio, attract - from έλξη elksi).

    ReplyDelete
  23. @Orpheus
    Yes, probably I was mistaken, ancient greek ἄλκη means "strong" and is thought to be probably a Germanic loanword (from elk)

    ReplyDelete
  24. @Orpheus

    You presented the non-steppe case well.
    Only question that I have is this.

    If proto-greek entered via Anatolia then either it must be closely related to early Hittite or it must have entered Greece sufficiently earlier than 2000bce so as to differentiate itself from Anatolian. Is there evidence for either of these two scenarios?

    ReplyDelete
  25. @vAsiSTha Oh you misunderstood, I'm not saying Greek is related to Anatolian. The Balkanic group (or Graeco-Phrygian for that matter) aren't related to Anatolian and aren't as old. I was saying that it entered Anatolia as Graeco-Phrygian (or something similar) and then moved to Greece instead of the typical assumption of steppe -> Balkans -> Greece. I don't know from where it entered Anatolia though. Could be through the Balkans or through Caucasus and then spread westward into Balkans/Greece.The only connection I can find to some other major language group would be Indo-Iranian (Graeco-Aryan hypothesis). This could make sense if I-Ir (which has nothing to do with Sintashta as is pretty clear by now) entered through the Caucasus (or any other route that might be suggested, I don't know about I-Ir so I might be missing something) and the Balkanic group split from the Graeco-Aryan parent language at some point. But this is completely theoretical and I don't know if it could somehow jump over the Anatolian languages in the area to make it to the Balkans and Greece.
    Another way this could have happened would be I-Ir splitting first for sure, and then from the same group that I-Ir split from, the Balkanic group formed and could have followed a different route (heading toward the Balkans and Graeco-Phrygian entering Anatolia instead of whatever route I-Ir took).

    TLDR I'm not saying Greek/Balkanic are related to Anatolian, only that they reached Greece from Anatolia, possibly from a Graeco-Phrygian homeland (with Phrygian remaining behind). How Graeco-Phrygian got to Anatolia is another matter though.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Ok I got you.

    It is very weird to me that Anatolian and Graeco-Phyrgian don't form a clear linguistic clade. At the same time, Armenian and Greek closeness could be overstated as per some linguists.

    Wrt Graeco-Phyrgian being from Anatolia, Greek ancient writers do say that Phyrgian entered Anatolia from Greece right? So how does the Anatolian homeland hold up to that evidence? Actually the theory of G-P entering from the east into Anatolia at a later date, Phyrgian staying behind and proto-Greek entering Greece would make sense. But the ancient Greek writers say the opposite.

    All very confusing to be honest. Greece did have a high culture and it seems unlikely that some miniscule steppe ancestry from the north would have been able to force language change.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Although Strabo etc are much later than the split of Graeco-Phyrgian so it's possible that they're wrong

    ReplyDelete
  28. @vAsiSTha That was what I was going to say, that's just something they guessed 1000+ years later. There are a few explanations though.
    - Wanting to be the source, it's higher prestige, rather than the opposite.
    - Simple deduction of "hey they speak our languahe but it"s not exactly ours, it's a bit different. So they must have our language that entered their country from our country."
    - Greece was more powerful than Phrygia so they couldn't imagine Phrygia potentially beating them in the past and imposing their language on them. Had to be the other way around, especially as the Hellenization of Anatolia happened. They couldn't imagine the other way around happening, and they obviously didn't know about the ways a language can spread that we now know of.
    - The initial group that spoke G-P in Anatolia expanded and absorbed a lot more people from around its area, genetically pretty similar. These together formed the Phrygians. But before that, during te expansion, some of the group that expanded ended up in Greece. So they passed down a story of them (as the original expanding group) going their language (G-P) to the people that came to be called Phrygians collectively, and over the centuries a few things changed (the original group was assumed to be Greeks, and their language Greek).
    I can think of more reasons if I brainstorm. But that's hypothetical. After I've seen so many ancient sources being disproved by aDNA I now have a hard time taking them at face value without additional hard evidence in their favor.
    - Similar culture. Greeks assumed that any similarities in culture meant Greek influence, and this actuallt does happened in some cases (eg Romans/Eteuscans), especially with Greek colonies in Asia Minor making it look more plausible. Also Phrygians as a culture could have formed under strong Greek influence (I doubt they existed since 1500-2000BCE) except the language was already there. So this would have an element of truth.
    - Most sources (eg Herodotus, Pausanias) mention that Phrygians were originally from the Balkans or North Greece. This could potentially be true for Graeco-Phrygian. Still it could jusy be some simple deduction based on Phrygians expanding at some point in the past and a few areas in the Balkans speaking Phrygian, and Greeks assuming that those areas were the source of Phrygians.
    - The sources were simply wrong lol. Wouldn't be the first time with oral tradition especially about things thousands of years ago. Legends can be made along the way centuries after some true event is recorded, and over time become the norm as true.
    We can't really know for now. Reminds me of the whole Etruscans-are- Iron-Age-Anatolians thing. Turna out that no, but ancient writers could have thought so because of the Anatolian influx into the Roman empire (also mentioned by Lazaridis et al 2022).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It could be that elite etruscans were from lemnos island and they etruscanized a large number of italic native population.

      The samples tested could be the native italics,while the elites were few so they were missing
      There was a paper that mention that chg/iranN Ancestry multipled during late bronze age and early iron age,exactly the time etrsucan arose.

      Delete
  29. New paper is out featuring the samples from Greece from that recent thesis paper, alongside other samples.
    https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(22)01824-3
    Seems like a local Neolithic source + EHG and CHG, except EHG is about twice as much as CHG. Wtf kind of population had this 1:2 CHG:EHG ratio? Sredni? Although their qpAdm models look a bit weird, they very successfully modeled Mycenaeans without any steppe/EHG.

    ReplyDelete
  30. On second thought the Neolithic Aegean source (Revenia_EN) does have CHG which if addes to the CHG/EHG gives an about 1:1 ratio which matches the steppe ratio Lazaridis et al 2022. Is it possible the Anatolia Neolithic source is not a local Aegean one but actually a CTC-related one and the CHG popping up in Revenia_EN is actually from a steppe component?
    @vAsiSTha could you run a proximal rotating model for these EHG-bearing samples from the Aegean at some point in the future? Thanks in advance.

    ReplyDelete
  31. I will. Just give me a list of all possible sources to choose from. Maybe 10-15 sources will suffice.

    ReplyDelete
  32. @vAsiSTha I had these in mind
    CTC
    Steppe_EMBA
    Europe_LNBA
    Steppe_MLBA
    Sredni
    Helladic (Mik15 from Clemente et al 2021)
    Cycladic (Kou01 from Clemente et al 2021)
    WSHG
    Varna
    Peloponnese Neolithic
    Iron Gates WHG
    LBK
    ARM_Aknashen_N
    Levant_N
    Mainly trying to find indications through sources of where they might be coming from and whether they had local admixture or not.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Anatolia N was populated by geneflow going from steppe region through PC Steppe then Balkans and into Anatolia.

    This is why Sidelkino HG has such affinity to Anatolia N and Anatolia HG.

    There may also be geneflow from South Caucuses west into Anatolia.

    Anatolia HG and N is closer to Steppe DNA (EBA not just MLBA) than it is to Iran N. This means most of Anatolian N receieved geneflow East to West via Steppe going anti clockwise north of caucuses rather than through the South.

    This is why Steppe MLBA has Anatolia DNA, not because Anatolian -> Steppe but Steppe -> Anatolian.

    This happened a long time ago so the source 'Steppe' pop was autosomallt and uniparentally different to EBA and later pops but the autosomnal signature is still there.

    Anatolian is too close to Steppe EBA for the mainstream model to hold true.

    Steppe MLBA and EBA are not differentiated in time but space.

    Yamnaya and Afanasievo formed on the Syr Darya and MLBA groups on the Oxus concurrently. They have just been sampled at different times.

    Hence MLBA groups from the Oxus were closer to West Asian farmers and able to colonize Balkans and Anatolia more easily than Yamnaya like groups which are closer to.Siberians and ANE.

    ReplyDelete
  34. @mzp1 Anatolia_N has continuity with Dzudzuana. Dzudzuana itself is the main ancestor of CHG/Iran too, and diverged from a common ancestor with WHG. Closest population to Anatolia_N (besides Dzudzuana) is PPNB and then it's CHG, Iran and Aurignacian. Anatolia's distance to ANE is almost twice as big as CHG/Iran, same for its distance to WHG. And 6x as distant to ANE than PPNB. EHG is also more distant than CHG/Iran despite harboring Mesolithic WHG which makes it less distant.
    You should read the Dzudzuana paper.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Its incorrect. I have reas dzudzuana.

    Anatolian is much closer to.Steppe Dna than to anyone else. I will post the fstats to.prove it.

    Professionals are not including steppe dna in their calcs because they incorrectly assume it has no unique continuity going back i.e. they assume it formed recently.

    But if you compare Anatolian with other groups it is v close to steppe dna and this makes sense as eef is also a kind of intermediary between steppe and anatolian and so is maykop and yamnaya.ozero balkans.

    Middle East can be a meeting point between Steppe origin and iran n origin dna. The steppe origin dna may go central asia, steppe, north of caucuses, balkans, anatolia, middle east.

    We know dna originates in south asia. To get to anatolia, middle.east it either went south of caucuses or north. There is a huge break and discontinuity between Anatolian and Iran N while Anatolian is much much closer to Steppe dna than to Iran N which points to its steppe origin.

    I will put the fstats here to show u guys.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Dzudzuana paper said dzudzuana was closer to Anatolian N than CHG.

    This is because from 26k to 10k there has been an east to west movement.

    Or the Anatolian and Dzudzuana affinity is mediated via steppe dna. So Caucuses is more isolates hence lots of drift from 26k to 10k while Anatolian has less drift than CHG becuase it has more recent DNA from Steppe which is less drifted due to less isolation and closer to South Asia.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. U are gujaratie right?
      U have an agenda of making Gujaratis as some anatolian population

      Delete
  37. These guys need to compare dzudzana, anatolian and chg to steppe but they are too stupid to do that because they want to tell the story that steppe was born in 'europe'.

    These guys are too stupid they just need to release the samples and let the reality come out.

    ReplyDelete
  38. https://ibb.co/NtMHCJB

    1 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_MLBA_Sintashta Iran_GanjDareh_N 11.2
    2 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_Afanasievo Iran_GanjDareh_N 6.28
    3 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_MLBA_Sintashta Georgia_Kotias.SG 4.49
    4 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.38
    5 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_Afanasievo Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.922
    6 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_MLBA_Sintashta Jordan_PPNB -0.276
    7 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.40
    8 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_MA1_HG.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -2.74
    9 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_Afanasievo Jordan_PPNB -2.84
    10 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG Jordan_PPNB -3.16
    11 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_MA1_HG.SG Jordan_PPNB -4.83
    12 Anatolia_N Chimp.REF Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -5.04
    13 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_MLBA_Sintashta Iran_GanjDareh_N 4.71
    14 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_MLBA_Sintashta Georgia_Kotias.SG 4.35
    15 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_Afanasievo Georgia_Kotias.SG 2.20
    16 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_Afanasievo Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.55
    17 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.015
    18 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.712
    19 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.16
    20 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_MA1_HG.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.62

    + score means W (Anatolian/PPNB) is closer to Y (Steppe/ANE) and - means closer to Z (Iran/CHG) (Vasistha can confirm)

    As you can see Anatolian (and PPNB!!!!) is closer to Steppe DNA than to Iran_N and CHG. Super interesting that PPNB is closer to Steppe than to Iran_N as it shows that PPNB took a route via Steppe -> Anatolia -> PPNB rather than coming from Iran_N.

    South Asia -> Iran_N
    South Asia -> Steppe -> Balkans -> Anatolia -> Middle East and North Africa

    But PPNB and Anatolians left Steppe a long (long) time ago hence do have RECENT drift from Steppe and South Asia and therefore all this is hidden and these guys are all confused about what is going on.

    Steppe DNA is very Central to Eurasia outside India and should be used when attempting to understand ancient Eurasian phylogenies. Steppe didnt just form 4,00BC in Pontic region.

    ReplyDelete
  39. "18 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.712
    19 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.16"

    Above fstats show that PPNB is not especially closer to either of CHG/IranN or Sidelkino_EHG.

    But it has affinity towards later steppe pops. More so to Sintashta than to Yamnay/Afan as you show below.

    "13 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_MLBA_Sintashta Iran_GanjDareh_N 4.71
    14 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_MLBA_Sintashta Georgia_Kotias.SG 4.35
    15 Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_Afanasievo Georgia_Kotias.SG 2.20"

    This means that there is additional ppnb/anatolian flow into don/volga region after EHG (post ~6000bce). Then from 3000bce onwards, there is a second ppnb/anatolian inflow (Z score of 4.3+ vs 2.2).

    The first inflow (formation of Afanasievo/yamnaya) is from the Caucasus which had a lot of PPN/Anatolian ancestry (Armenia_Aknashen, Seh_gabi, Azerbaijan_Lowland_LN as possible sources). See my post Exploring the sources of the 'Southern ancestry' in the Steppe

    The second inflow which led to the formation of corded ware/sintashta from yamnaya like pop is from a local European farmer source rich in ppn/anatolian (possibly from ukraine/poland.

    ReplyDelete
  40. "New paper is out featuring the samples from Greece from that recent thesis paper, alongside other samples.
    https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(22)01824-3"

    There are 3200bce shahtepe samples from Iran in this, the paper says that it has EHG ancestry. That is incorrect, the authors mixed up CHG + Siberian for EHG. I will write about it soon I hope.

    ReplyDelete
  41. @Vasistha,

    No thats not correct. DNA is CLEARLY moving East to West not the opposite lol that is so weird.

    The East to West movement is even made clear in the Dzudzuana paper where dzu is closer to Anatolian rather than CHG. That clearly implies an East to West movement between dzu and Chg.

    Anatolia and Iran N are very different genetically. You have run fstats or f2 to see this. Qpadm runs are meaningless if they are based on wrong assumptions.

    Anatolians and Iran N only coalesce around South Central Asia which is where they separated. Like Sarazm, Kalash, Tajik Yaghnobi.

    Then Anatolians are derived from Steppe which went from South Central Asia to Steppe and Iran N which went West (much earlier).

    You cant have CHG, Iran N, ppnb Anatolian all these people migrating into one place Steppe Dna. Also lots of migrations into India.

    All of this stuff is silly and exceptionally wrong cos it is just backwards.

    Before you talk Admixture edges in Qpgraph you have to have the drift edges first. Pops HAVE TO separate before they can mix. They DO NOT have to mix but they DO have to separate.

    Hence you HAVE TO show how Anatolian and Iran N separated or how Anatolian and Steppe separated before you speculate about mixing.

    This is becuase you risk confusing the separation point with mixing. This is what is happening with South Asians and Steppe DNA. These are separation points not mixing points.

    Because you guys are confusing the two you have these complex and untenable mixing scenarios like having all of Anatolian, Iran N, Chg, Ehg/ane all coming into steppe from different directions. And you are doing that without first understanding how those pops separated from each other in the first place.

    So the cart is being placed before the horse.

    You cannot have these complex mixing scenarios to steppe and indians it is unrealistic.

    Meh PPNB is equidistant to Iran N and Sidelkino and Ma1 (lol). Look at a map where is Jordan, Caucuses, Iran and then where is Ma1 and Sidelkino.

    The reason for all these stats is that DNA is.moving from Steppe to Anatolian and then further South into PPNB.

    Otherwise Anatolian and PPNB should be much closer to Iran N and CHG.

    Or just look at distances. PPNB and Anatolian is just too far from Iran N for there to be much genetic continuity between Iranian plateu and Anatolia/North Africa. The continuity is

    PPNB < Anatolian < Balkan < Steppe MLBA < > EBA > ANE

    Iran_N < SC Asia/Sarazm > ANE

    These are drift edges in qpgraph that cam explain all/most of the data hence there is very little need for admixture edges.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Lol idk what you are saying. Below are your own stats. -ve stat with sidelkino becomes +4.71 stat with Sintashta. Clearly suggests inflow of ppnb like ancestry in the steppe region.

    This does not show show movement from steppe into ppnb.

    Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.16

    Jordan_PPNB Chimp.REF Russia_MLBA_Sintashta Iran_GanjDareh_N 4.71


    I mean 2000bce Sintashta cannot be a source of 8000bce PPNB. The only way that Sintashta has this PPNB affinity when Sidelkino_EHG doesnt is through an inflow of PPNB like ancestry between the dates of Sidelkino (9k bce) and Sintashta (2k bce).

    Won't comment on this topic further.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Ofcourse it does.

    (Ancestor of) Steppe MLBA moves North and drifts a bit, becoming what we call EHG.

    Some other movement from Steppe MLBA moves West into Balkans and then South into Anatolia.

    Steppe MLBA or its ancestor could of existed much earlier than 2000BC near oxus river.

    In fact it DEFINITELY did becuase Steppe MLBA is closer to other ancient populationas than all of its supposed 'parents'.

    You are saying just because we havent sampled oxus, steppe and close regions then DEFINITELY no one was living there and steppe definitely didnt exist prior to that.

    Sintashta simply went North from Oxus or east caspian into urals at a later date.

    Ehg did this earlier and/or moved from a more eastern home (syr darya).

    Sintashta has more Southern than ehg becuase it moved south to north.

    How is ppnb from jordan moving into urals area.

    Everything you guys are saying in this field is wrong and when the data comes out to back me up you wont have the excuses like "i was just copying others".

    One more thing. Hopefully the dzu sample will come out at some point.

    I predict (guarantee) it will show huge affinity to steppe dna. Even the pca in the laziridis paper has dzu and anatolian near to where steppe dna should be appearing, between southern pops and northern whg and ane.

    Probably this is what is confusing laziridis and others hence it is being released. Just like how they called the zamanbaba n sample 'contaminated' after i mailed to tell them it looks alot like steppe dna.

    ReplyDelete
  44. "How is ppnb from jordan moving into urals area."

    I don't think anyone's saying it's moving directly from jordan to urals, rather gradual movements of groups mixed with such ancestry and then mixing of EHG and then yamnaya like folks with EEF to give rise to steppe_MLBA is what's causing this affinity in stats.


    "(Ancestor of) Steppe MLBA moves North and drifts a bit, becoming what we call EHG.
    Some other movement from Steppe MLBA moves West into Balkans and then South into Anatolia.
    Steppe MLBA or its ancestor could of existed much earlier than 2000BC near oxus river."

    So, If I understand it correctly, you think the admixture of various populations into EHG to give to rise to Steppe_EMBA and then further mixing to give rise to Steppe_MLBA is wrong ! As per you, it's mostly drift within the ancestral populations of Steppe_MLBA that's giving rise to these bronze age steppe populations ! Am I correct ?
    Regarding Oxus, We do have some Copper age samples from Turkmenistan area if I am not wrong.


    "In fact it DEFINITELY did becuase Steppe MLBA is closer to other ancient populationas than all of its supposed 'parents'."

    Isn't this because of mixing of ANF rich populations like EEF and other pops to EHG and later Steppe_EMBA to give rise to Steppe_MLBA as ashish has been saying ? Isn't there good enough samples of aDNA from that region across various times to prove this ?


    "Sintashta simply went North from Oxus or east caspian into urals at a later date"

    We have some copper age samples dated to around 3000 BCE and slightly earlier from southern turkmenistan like the Namazga, Parkhai etc. Why don't you try finding proto-sintastha among them ?


    "Everything you guys are saying in this field is wrong and when the data comes out to back me up you wont have the excuses like "i was just copying others"."

    Great :)

    ReplyDelete
  45. Ok i am at work. For anyone interested I will post some fstats tomorrow like d(yoruba, iberomaurusian; chimp, x) which i predict will have steppe dna scoring highest proving that steppe dna cannot be due to mixing of other pops.

    Obviously steppe dna does exist in turkmenistan as andronovo type people and others.

    Anyway I dont care I am happy this convo got me to fully understand the anatolian, ppnb iberomaurusians etc i wanted to understand better the difference between Iran N and Anatolian/ North African which now makes sense to me.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Ok peeps so here it is the definite thing. This is biggest thing, can disprove Out of Africa theory and also shows the ancient continuity to Steppe DNA.

    Africa_EurasianSource
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12W4-sPILdm5T7tDGg8jmGPG_cExQYtLV4TGBevX2-44/edit?usp=sharing

    f4 of the form (Afr, Afr, test, chimp)

    For test we have Eurasian pops
    For Afr we have Africans, N Africans, and Anatolians.

    We are looking for which Eurasian pops score highest Zscore for
    (Closer Afr, Distan African, test, chimp)

    So for instance, if we have
    f4 (Yoruba, Mbuti, test, chimp) means the pop scoring highest for test is closest to Yoruba vs Mbuti. Either Out of Africa or from Eurasia to Africa is the truth. The scores will illumiinate what is the truth.

    Mbuti, Yoruba, Iberomaurusian, PPNB, Anatolian is African->Eurasian going from lesser to greater Eurasian affinity.

    So when we have (Distant African, Closer African, test, chimp) it is telling us who is the best donor for Closer African ie if DNA went from Eurasia to Africa what is the best proxy for that source.

    In the above fstats, for most calcs, Steppe scores higher than any other pop inc Iran_N, CHG, and EHG. Therefore, Steppe cannot be derived from admixture between any of those pops, and must have more greater ancient continuity than any of them. The African pops here like Yoruba and Iberomaurusians split off a very very long time ago and Steppe DNA is the best proxy for the newer DNa going into North Africa and then into Africa.

    Some examples from the sheet, in order of highest Z at the top.

    Mbuti vs Yoruba

    Mbuti Yoruba Russia_Afanasievo Chimp.REF -32.9
    Mbuti Yoruba Russia_MLBA_Sintashta Chimp.REF -32.6
    Mbuti Yoruba Iran_C_TepeHissar Chimp.REF -30.4
    Mbuti Yoruba Iran_GanjDareh_N Chimp.REF -30.2
    Mbuti Yoruba Georgia_Kotias.SG Chimp.REF -27.5
    Mbuti Yoruba Russia_Kostenki14.SG Chimp.REF -25.8
    Mbuti Yoruba Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG Chimp.REF -24.1

    NB: I some of the calcs are back to front so if Closer African is the first pop we are looking for most + Zscore and if Closer African is the second pop we are looking for most - Zscores.

    ReplyDelete
  47. These stats are telling you is that Yoruba got some later Eurasian admixture which Mbuti pygmy's didn't get. Hence Yoruba shows higher affinity to Eurasians when compared to Mbuti. This is precisely the reason why Mbuti is chosen as outgroup for Admixtools but Yoruba isn't.

    As for the magnitude of the Z scores, -32 and -30 aren't much different. Both are highly highly significant.

    Various papers talk about this recent eurasian ancestry in Africans. Busby et al 2016, pickrell et al 2014, Llorente et al 2015 etc.

    Out of Africa is pretty secure with the basal Y and mtdna subclades found in moderns there, along with other evidence.

    ReplyDelete
  48. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2022.11.036
    Genetic admixture and language shift in the medieval Volga-Oka interfluve

    ReplyDelete
  49. So Out of Eurasia basically looks like this.

    https://ibb.co/DW9dtJ5

    The qpgaph is an auto-generated best-fit graph for the samples provided, having given Papuan as output. The graph came out exactly as predicted by this theory.

    It has Anatolian deriving from an ancient Steppe MLBA like population which is yet unsampled. Sarmatians are more 'basal' than Steppe MLBA therefore also need to exist much earlier than currently sampled.

    ReplyDelete
  50. @mzp1

    Get a better hobby. You sound more and more like fringe conspiracy theorists every day. You don't even know what you are talking about most of the time.

    ReplyDelete
  51. @singh what you talking about u retard.

    'Get another hobby' those are Davidski words and even he never showed the level if disrespect to me a fool like u does.

    Dont let dunning kruger knock you out.

    I can 100% guarantee i am right I have been looking at IE and aDNA since before any of you were here. Go check how far back my comments go on Eurogenes.

    ReplyDelete
  52. The Russian samples are interesting. Davidski has the G25 coords on his blog.

    Target: BOL009:BOL009
    Distance: 2.1062% / 0.02106196 | R4P
    49.2 Baltic_EST_BA
    24.0 RUS_Pokrovka_Sarmatian
    14.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    12.2 Nganassan


    Target: BOL005:BOL005
    Distance: 3.0124% / 0.03012356 | R4P
    61.4 Baltic_EST_BA
    22.6 RUS_Caucasus_Sarmatian
    13.8 Nganassan
    2.2 RUS_Catacomb


    Target: BOL001:BOL001
    Distance: 3.0933% / 0.03093262 | R4P
    53.0 Baltic_EST_BA
    26.0 KAZ_Saka_TianShan_IA
    13.2 Corded_Ware_Baltic
    7.8 Nganassan

    Interesting mix of baltic, scytho-sarmatian, CW and Uralic ancestry 200km from Moscow in the iron age ~200ce (initial test runs, models are not fine tuned).

    ReplyDelete

  53. For me now all the major questions are answered. I dont really care about Out of Eurasia theory but the thing about Anatolians, Steppe and Sarmatians is really interesting.

    In short, Sarmatians are an early and slightly less drifted form of ancient Steppe DNA. They cannot get their excess affinity to Yoruba and Han via an possible later admixture. Earlier I showed that Sintashta was closest to Yoruba and ancient Anatolians and MENA

    When I later added Sarmatians to the test they came out closer to Yoruba, Han, Yana and MA1 but all later West and pops are closer to Sintashta. This is WHG, EHG, Anatolian and related pops.

    Thus the data shows that Sintashta and Sarmatians are very ancient populations who havent recieved admxiture from those tested pops like EHG, CHG, Iran N etc because it is closer to anciently separated populations than they are.

    The data also shows that Anatolian would of split off from Sintashta.

    Thus the auto-generated best fitting graph, according to the data, found the matching phylogeny this theory predicts. The only major thing is that I havent given the option of admixture edges. When run with 2/3 admix edges, the graph is not too different, still having Sarmatians splitting off early and the admix edges at the leafs (ends) of the tree.

    So these pops have just been unsampled but there is definite proof they are very ancient and cannot be derived from adxmiture via EHG, CHG, Iran_N, ANE. Rather Northern and Western pops have to be derived via drift from something like Steppe DNA.

    Its interesting to me that North Africans and especially middle easterners look v different to Iranians. The N Africans/MENA look like early 'white' people and we can see the variation that would of existed in Steppe a long time ago, before becoming even lighter and moving to West.

    Anatolians look a lot like Europeans, and there is lots of blonde in Anatolia, N Africa, MENA compared to Iran.

    ReplyDelete
  54. @mzp1
    "The data also shows that Anatolian would of split off from Sintashta."

    You're deranged. How many tin foil hats do you have on?

    ReplyDelete
  55. @Singh,

    But that is how it is. I can understand you being critical of certain ideas but I am just telling/showing you how the data is.

    Your making yourself look kinda stupid. I think you should stop now.

    The qpgraph is AUTO-GENERATED by Harvards own methodology and data.

    Your just a dumb singh I dunno why ur arguing with me lols. Was you who tried to say I have non-South Asian ancestry. Fools needs to respect who is at the top here.

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  56. @mzp1

    Why would Anatolian HG and Neolithic Anatolians be derived from late Bronze age group like Sintashta?

    Sintashta has indirect Anatolian admixture from EEF, some Sintashta outliners are more similar to early bronze age Yamnaya with less EEF compared to most Sintashta. Earlier steppe groups like Eneolithic steppe Progress_en do not have any EEF or Anatolians.

    You don't care about samples dating and timeline of admixture events, you don't care what published havard study has to say, yet you use their name to back up your 'data' lol pathetic

    There is nothing to be critical about when everything you're saying is nonsense. You simply do not know what you are talking about to begin with.

    ReplyDelete
  57. @mzp

    Hey stop name calling. Be respectful if you want to debate.

    As for qpgraph, automated or not, it is not proof. In fact the tool is more limited than qpadm (which can take in a lot more references). Automated graphs are even worse. In Maier et al 2022 where he introduces admixtools2, there is a caveat - that automated graphs which are obviously historically reversed will be rejected manually.

    The main mistake that I see you making is making conclusions based on Fstats while ignoring completely the time transect of samples from the same region. That time transect shows you clearly what change in ancestry happened over time. For eg if from 2000bce a sample shows no affinity to Onge, then in 1000bce the same site ABC shows lot of affinity to Onge. What does that tell you?

    1. That the site ABC received Onge related admixture between 2000-1000bce? or
    2. That ABC gave ancestry to Onge in some very distant past?

    Somehow you always go for the wrong answer 2.

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  58. You dont understand.

    Look Sintashta is not close to EEF. It is close to Anatolian Hunter Gatherer ie Pinarbasi. So the 'EEF' like ancestry in Sintashta is not EEF its Pinarbasi.

    Then EEF is actually closer to Yamnaya not Sintasht

    Look its very clear

    W=Germany_EN_LBK
    X=Anatolia_Epipaleolithic
    Y=Russia_Afanasievo
    Z=Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
    D=0.0021
    Z=0.726

    W=Anatolia_N
    X=Anatolia_Epipaleolithic
    Y=Russia_Afanasievo
    Z=Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
    D=0.0043
    Z=1.57

    But IAMC DashtiKozi is closer to Anatolian N and EEF.

    W=Germany_EN_LBK
    X=Anatolia_Epipaleolithic
    Y=Tajikistan_BA_DashtiKozy
    Z=Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
    D=0.0097
    Z=2.10

    W=Anatolia_N
    X=Anatolia_Epipaleolithic
    Y=Tajikistan_BA_DashtiKozy
    Z=Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
    D=0.0139
    Z=3.30

    All the Z-scores are + meaning IAMC/Yamnaya is closer to EEF/Anatolian_N while Sintashta is closer to Anatolian Hunter Gatherer.

    So its wrong to model the Anatolian affinity of Sintashta as coming from EEF. It has to be modelled from Anatolian HG.

    Sintashta = Yamnaya + Anatolia HG

    "","target","left","weight","se","z"
    "1","Russia_MLBA_Sintashta","Anatolia_Epipaleolithic","0.41","0.053","7.65"
    "2","Russia_MLBA_Sintashta","Russia_Afanasievo","0.59","0.053","11.07"

    p=0.0022295


    Sintashta = Yamnaya + EEF

    "1","Russia_MLBA_Sintashta","Germany_EN_LBK","0.36","0.036","10.07"
    "2","Russia_MLBA_Sintashta","Russia_Afanasievo","0.64","0.036","18.03"

    p=1.2963e-08


    The idea of dating is stupid, no offense. Just because many parts of the world have no ancient DNA. You have no evidence to deny the existence of Steppe-like DNA in South Central Asia 10,000BC for instance. The data suggests it exists. The only argument people are making is that I am modelling older groups with newer groups but timing has nothing to do with it.

    Yeah its true that Sarmatians and Steppe came after EHG. But where did they come from? There are other possibilities than just mixing of known pops.

    The qpadm also agrees with me so I dunno where this is gonna go.

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  59. For the above qpadm pright=Iran_N, Papuan, MA1, Ust_Ishim, Yoruba, Loschbour, Sidelkino HG

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  60. As for the question of whether Sintashta = yamnaya + pinarbasi or yamnaya + LBK.

    That is a valid question, as long as Sintashta = yamnaya + X. I have no issues with that.

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  61. No, that is just 'backward' modelling. IE modelling the source as if it were a descendant. This is why Sintashta models with HG not Farmer. Because HG is a 'descendant' or drifted version of something close to Sintashta that existed a long time ago.

    That is the best explanation imo of the qpadm (and f4) results above. Otherwise why does Sintashta model better with Anatolia Epipaleolithic rather than EEF. There is no Anatolian HG like pop can that provide admixture to Sintashta.

    But in ancient times a Sintashta-like pop could of migrated to Anatolia (from East Caspian or further South) and then drifted to become Anatolia HG. Then when we are 'backward' modelling Sintashta with Anatolian + Steppe EBA it works better with HG than EEF because EEF has additional Yamnaya/IAMC-like admixture which is related to the transition from HG to Farmer.

    So Anatolian HG and WHG are close to Sintashta, and hence likely derived from it. Then EEF and Anatolian farmer have additional IAMC-like admixture which marks the transition to Neolithic.

    Thus Sintashta 'models' as Yamnaya + HG, because Yamnaya is more Eastern than Sintashta, and Anatolian HG more Western. Anatolian HG does not share alleles with Yamnaya at the exclusion of Sintashta, but EEF does. Hence Sintashta models poorly with EEF, because EEF is already too close to Yamnaya.

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  62. The mainstream 'Harvard theory' is very dodgy imo.

    When I mentioned to them that Uzb Zamanbaba N looks like Steppe DNA they told me its 'contaminated' and newer versions of the dataset had it labelled as such.

    Dzudzuana sampled still not released. My theory predicts it looks like Steppe DNA.

    Lots of dodgy papers and probably missing data and runs. How is it they cant tell these things. They are throwing away lots of good qpadm and fstats and ignoring them in their papers because it dont tie up with their theory.

    Now they know they need to move in the another direction. I bet you anything coming out of Reich lab is gonna be playing down Aryan migration and all this stuff. I think they quietly want to move away cos they cant release Dzudzuana as it looks too much like Steppe.

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  63. @Orpheus

    It would be great if you could post a comment giving us reading material supporting a Anatolian origin for the Myceneans or the proto-greeks overall. We all would really appreciate it.

    ReplyDelete
  64. @3dacc There's Drew's theory of proto-Greek taking a Caucasus -> Anatolia -> Greece route but that's pretty old, and there aren't any books for the 2021 and 2022 studies. In fact you can read the studies themselves, it's Clemente et al 2021 supplementals .xl qpAdm, and Lazaridis et al 2022. Mycenaeans have twice as much Levantine as Minoans and no steppe haplos (but Anatolian haplos are present). There are also cultural influences from Anatolia, so proto-Greek or Graeco-Phrygian that later spkit into Greek coming from there is plausible. Although proto-Greek could have come earlier than Mycenaeans had formed, and Mycenaeans could have geneflow + cultural influence from Anatolia while maintaining their pre-existing language.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Could these female Greek slaves contribute any steppe? I just found out and even pasted same comment in your other article. During mauryan times indian men having Greek slaves were kind of common.
    https://muse.jhu.edu/article/757117

    ReplyDelete

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